C&B Models + Printing

[LuthorCorp]

Good Morning All,

Here to ask for some more information once again...

We are looking to start printing C&B models with Dies in house using our Printers (We have 2 Form2s and 2 Eden 260vs) and we are struggling in a few aspects.

We are using Exocad mostly for the design or crowns and we use the model builder in there to create models, the dies are not as refined as the 3Shape designer however this is what we use the most and would like to make this work. Our main issues is the dies seem to be loose in the sockets for both the Form2 and stratasys printed models, now we know we could print a solid model and a separate die to alleviate this issue however we would like to see if anybody has success with printing using either of these software's and printers to create good dies.

Curious to see what you guys are doing,


**Note**

If this helps this is the materials we have tried printing with so far;

-Stratasys
- VeroDent 670
- VeroDent 690

-Form2
- Dental Model
- Black Model

 

[kristian]

We have 260VS (670) and Form2 (model v1) and we gave up on removable dies in the models. We just print solid with a ditch around margin, and a separate die.

 

[JMN]

We have 260VS (670) and Form2 (model v1) and we gave up on removable dies in the models. We just print solid with a ditch around margin, and a separate die.

Gave up because it was too loose or too tight to repeatably seat correctly?

 

[CoolHandLuke]

shoulda stuck to 2014 when 3shape didnt let you add space between the pin and the hole. snug fit everytime.

 

[kristian]

Gave up because it was too loose or too tight to repeatably seat correctly?

Some would fit okay, nice and snug, some would end up too loose. The issues were never consistent.

 

[JMN]

Some would fit okay, nice and snug, some would end up too loose. The issues were never consistent.

And while it's still funny, that is why Ive not bought this poster. You can adjust many variables with a consistant error.

 

[Joe]

shoulda stuck to 2014 when 3shape didnt let you add space between the pin and the hole. snug fit everytime.

we're on 2014 and have adjusted the space until the fit was consistant. The biggest variable was cleaning the models well consistently.

 

[LuthorCorp]

I think we are coming to the realization that having a die separate and a solid model might just be the easiest way to make everything work, that being said we are going to start testing again in the near future to see if we can optimize our results to have a workable consistency.

 

[2thm8kr]

I think we are coming to the realization that having a die separate and a solid model might just be the easiest way to make everything work, that being said we are going to start testing again in the near future to see if we can optimize our results to have a workable consistency.

This is why I went model less for every case I could. IOS = no models for quadrant based dentistry. Everything else is impression and desk top scans of solid models.

 

[LuthorCorp]

This is why I went model less for every case I could. IOS = no models for quadrant based dentistry. Everything else is impression and desk top scans of solid models.

Is it difficult to transition into model less? I would imagine it takes a steep learning curve to confidently go completely model less

 

[2thm8kr]

Is it difficult to transition into model less? I would imagine it takes a steep learning curve to confidently go completely model less

The way we did it was a long process with one doctor until we worked out the variables. Then we transitioned the others.
Lots of notes and screen shots.
We had the docs take a small impression after doing the IOS of the prep and adjacent teeth. Model was pour from weighed die stone and a measured amount of water to keep the stone variable same as reasonably possible.
Design the crown in CAD and mill. Test fit on the model for proximal contacts. Go back and look at the design and compare
the proximal contact intensity and make adjustments. I sat in the operatory during the seating appointment to see how the adjustments
went. I had printed screen shots of the color map of contact intensity to compare to reality and kept notes. We got the proximal contacts down in a few tries, but
occlusion took a little while to dial in. I did not adjust occlusion on mounted models. I just kept reducing the intensity until the docs adjusted the occlusion
barely with a rubber point. I would rather them take a minute to adjust the contacts than to need to make another firing to add a hair of contact.
We found that the less time a temporary was in situ the more accurate the final crown fit was. It also doesn't take long to figure out which clients
will be able to do it this way or not. If the office is a revolving door of assistants or a group of nitwits that can't adapt or learn new tricks it isn't worth
the trouble. Once you get your variables figured out they just become settings in the CAD. If you make a dossier for each client it's not that hard to keep
most of them happy with the results. I hear plenty of times that the crown seating was 5 minutes or less after chatting up the patient. We do a few same day crowns
from IOS now most days of the week.

 

[zero_zero]

If the office is a revolving door of assistants or a group of nitwits that can't adapt or learn new tricks it isn't worth
the trouble.

Been there, dun that...

 

[LuthorCorp]

The way we did it was a long process with one doctor until we worked out the variables. Then we transitioned the others.
Lots of notes and screen shots.
We had the docs take a small impression after doing the IOS of the prep and adjacent teeth. Model was pour from weighed die stone and a measured amount of water to keep the stone variable same as reasonably possible.
Design the crown in CAD and mill. Test fit on the model for proximal contacts. Go back and look at the design and compare
the proximal contact intensity and make adjustments. I sat in the operatory during the seating appointment to see how the adjustments
went. I had printed screen shots of the color map of contact intensity to compare to reality and kept notes. We got the proximal contacts down in a few tries, but
occlusion took a little while to dial in. I did not adjust occlusion on mounted models. I just kept reducing the intensity until the docs adjusted the occlusion
barely with a rubber point. I would rather them take a minute to adjust the contacts than to need to make another firing to add a hair of contact.
We found that the less time a temporary was in situ the more accurate the final crown fit was. It also doesn't take long to figure out which clients
will be able to do it this way or not. If the office is a revolving door of assistants or a group of nitwits that can't adapt or learn new tricks it isn't worth
the trouble. Once you get your variables figured out they just become settings in the CAD. If you make a dossier for each client it's not that hard to keep
most of them happy with the results. I hear plenty of times that the crown seating was 5 minutes or less after chatting up the patient. We do a few same day crowns
from IOS now most days of the week.

This is very good to know, its something we have thought about doing but it is a very scary idea to jump into without some background knowledge, much obliged!

 

[Lighthouse]

Good Morning All,

Here to ask for some more information once again...

We are looking to start printing C&B models with Dies in house using our Printers (We have 2 Form2s and 2 Eden 260vs) and we are struggling in a few aspects.

We are using Exocad mostly for the design or crowns and we use the model builder in there to create models, the dies are not as refined as the 3Shape designer however this is what we use the most and would like to make this work. Our main issues is the dies seem to be loose in the sockets for both the Form2 and stratasys printed models, now we know we could print a solid model and a separate die to alleviate this issue however we would like to see if anybody has success with printing using either of these software's and printers to create good dies.

Curious to see what you guys are doing,


**Note**

If this helps this is the materials we have tried printing with so far;

-Stratasys
- VeroDent 670
- VeroDent 690

-Form2
- Dental Model
- Black Model

We were having the same problem with our Form2. We increased the model and die size in FormBuilder to 1.030. Now everything fits great.

 

[Lighthouse]

How we came to that number...

We printed out a bunch of dies at various sizes and tested until we were happy with the fit. Every Form 2 might be different. I don't know.

We use 2016 3Shape model builder and only print the single dies and solid models. There's no use having removable dies since we're mainly using these models for easy zirconia restorations.

 

[Jen Corneille]

Which material are you printing?

 

[rlhhds]

We were having the same problem with our Form2. We increased the model and die size in FormBuilder to 1.030. Now everything fits great.

Are you using 3Shape or Exocad?

 

[Lighthouse]

Are you using 3Shape or Exocad?

We use exocad to design and 3Shape for the models. And we use the Dental Model Resin from FormLabs. Also...I said "FormBuilder" when I meant PreForm...

 

[LuthorCorp]

We were having the same problem with our Form2. We increased the model and die size in FormBuilder to 1.030. Now everything fits great.

Hmm this at least will give me something to test, Ill have to play around with the settings. lly we want to have a solid definitive option to make sure we can produce consistent results and this will help out for sure.

 

[kristian]

I do believe there's a lot of individual variation between Form2's. Ours seems to be pretty good. Many others need to tweak theirs to get it right.