Best solution for a CAD/CAM complete implant supported screw retained metal bridge.

[Maxim]

Hi, I am looking for the perfect CAD/CAM system to be able to make a metal full mouth screw retained implant supported bridge with great accuracy and fit. Is it better with imes/3shape, or ZirkonZahn or Datron... please advice if someone has any experience in this field. Thanks

 

[DMC]

Steinbichler scanner for sure/Medit scanner maybe, exocad, SUM3d, into Industrial mill?

Want some?

 

[Drizzt]

I agree with Scott . Zirkonzahn no way , Datron imes 750 i maybe . But with a big industrial mill , DMG , Roeders , Haas , Micron you will have the right tool for big implant cases and bars .

 

[Maxim]

You made me curious *** about the Steinbichler scanner, I was trying to make a search for it on the internet but I could find only one brochure, without even an picture of it. Also I have read in a forum on dentallabnetwork.com that Steinbichler is the one who has made the intraoral scanner camera for 3M.
I feel that for the 3shape, I will be paying not only for the scanners but also for all the commercials, websites, speakers...I would prefer to spend my money on the machine and not on the marketing of it...
As for industrial mill, my main objective is not a higher productivity, but the the most accurate mill, i.e. the smallest milling machine that can make a full jaw screw retained metal bridge over implants with the best accuracy. Any suggestions? Thanks...

 

[user name]

Most cost effective, best accuracy...send your models to ***.

 

[Maxim]

The imes recommends the 3shape 800 or 810, do you think that this combination will work for me? As i am considering most probably the imes CORiTEC 450i... Thank you Drizzt.

 

[DMC]

I will sell you a new 2013 Open version of the SteinBichler scanner and exocad for $29,500

It is very accurate. You have option of it looking like a Comet Xs (Black and Green Steinbichler colors) with hinged door, or a 3M Lava Scan STII with sliding door.

Another option is the Medit scanner and exocad for $19,500. You get what you pay for.
Both come with Alienware ALX tower....liquid-cooled and nice graphics card.

We use/sell DDG Z-tech Titanium scan-markers to use with exocad.


I can help you build a Haas, or go buy a turn-key system I guess?

When using exocad and SUM3d together, it is possible to pass over a more accurate .obj file of implant stuff.
This is done with new exoCAM integration of the Two softwares.

We sell SUM3d CAM.

Scott

 

[Drizzt]

The imes recommends the 3shape 800 or 810, do you think that this combination will work for me? As i am considering most probably the imes CORiTEC 450i... Thank you Drizzt.

I wouldn't go for a laser scanner if I were you . I can understand that you are mostly interested for big implant cases , so you will need the best accuracy you can get , both from your scanner and your mill . Structured light scanners(Medit,Imetric,SmartOptics,etc) are more accurate than laser scanners (3Shape , Dental Wings) . And as Scott said , you get what you're paying for . I have heard many Medit users that are perfectly happy with it , even for large cases . If I was buying now , I would buy this scanner .

As for the milling machine , I don't think that 450i is what you're looking for . I have a customized Yenadent D 40 , and I am milling all my metal with it , either it is simple crown & bridge , or implant substructures . I also mill my own custom abutments out of titanium, including the interface . You can check some of my work here ( drizzt85's Library | Photobucket .

It weighs 650 kg and has many modifications compared to the standard model . So far I am perfectly happy with , with the times and the accuracy . But still if I had more money to spend , I would buy the bigger DC 40 , or something even bigger ! Although I haven't seen a milled full arch implant case out of 450 i , I simply can't believe that a machine so small , that was not made for metal milling initially , can mill a so complex case with the needed accuracy . Plus , when I saw it in action at an exhibition , it was soooo slow ! 45 minutes for a coping . I mill 20 minutes average , depending on the disc thickness .

So if you want to mill these cases inhouse , you'd better start looking for the expensive toys . You can always buy a nice scanner and outsource those cases to a milling center . Do you have the volume to support a large investment ? I mean , how many of those cases you having per month ? Will it be a wise decision for you to invest 250.000 $ or more for a setup that will really do what you want it to do ?

 

[Dentaleng]

Hi, I am looking for the perfect CAD/CAM system to be able to make a metal full mouth screw retained implant supported bridge with great accuracy and fit. Is it better with imes/3shape, or ZirkonZahn or Datron... please advice if someone has any experience in this field. Thanks

What's ur budget plan??? PM me

 

[k2 Ceramic Studio]

a more accurate .obj file of implant stuff.
This is done with new exoCAM integration of the Two softwares.
Scott

Hi Scott do the .obj files have more data in them? I have been using this file type ( .obj ) for a bit to reduce the size of large bridge scans done in .stl so I can show them in a pdf (reduced conversion time and pdf size) hope some of this makes sense Pete

 

[DMC]

It's not a traingulated mesh. Just a different way of describing a 3d object that is more common in the CNC machining world.

.stl is really for 3d printing (stereolithography)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavefront_.obj_file

 

[Beatrice]

Doing what you want in high-end quality required about 1,5 to 2 millions $ of investment.
So either you put this money or you outsource to someone with this kind of equipment like us.

The thing is you can get something good maybe for 200-300k but you will be limited at some point and this will frustrate you to outsource a case with such an investment. With our equipment you will never be limited and if my machine break it not big deal because I have multiple scanners and machines to be ready for this problem. On your side if your machine break, can you wait weeks before it get repaired?

Getting in-house will only give you a faster turnaround time (2-3 days maybe),are you willing to take the challenge of this investment with all the trouble involve to save few days and MAYBE (if you really produce a lot),MAYBE make few more bucks?

Pm if you have question or call me

www.pantheradental.com

 

[greeny]

Out of the machines you listed, the Datron system is the only one that's designed specifically for the application you're looking to do. The other machines are capable of doing zirconia relatively accurately and hard metals more for C&B applications. Because of its size, the Datron machine is often placed into the wrong category of mill - it is an extremely compact industrial machine, while the other ones you listed are what I would consider robust tabletops mills.

That being said, I don't think you're at a point (production-wise) to even warrant an investment in a Datron (or other industrial) )machine. A good place to start (in my opinion) would be to incorporate the scan/design capabilities into your lab and send them to someone such as Bernard at Panthera for machining. Then, once you have a better idea of that process, see if you're doing the amount of work that would get you a substantial ROI by bringing your production in-house. At this point, you'll also be familiar with the quality of product you're getting from a large milling center so you'll be able to determine if you'd be getting the same quality from an in-house mill.

As a side note: Bernard brings up another good point regarding service, and luckily Datron has a large industrial mill presence in the US, so when one of our machines is down, we have the type of resources here in the US so that "weeks" is not even a part of our vocabulary.

If you want to see our machine get through some Ti, skip to :45 in the video:
DATRON D5 -- Milling Titanium Implant Bar, 5-axis, 3+2 Machining - YouTube

 

[reqvaa]

As a user of some CAD and some CAM programs, i would be advise 3shape d700(dont know about d800),and not to choose coritec 450i - this machine not so good to handle with, and default CAM is awful. It cant mill nothing more difficult than a bridge, alot of troubles.

ps. Datron d5 looks amazing, what is the price of that? =) pm please, if somebody know.

 

[Labwa]

As a user of some CAD and some CAM programs, i would be advise 3shape d700(dont know about d800),and not to choose coritec 450i - this machine not so good to handle with, and default CAM is awful. It cant mill nothing more difficult than a bridge, alot of troubles.

ps. Datron d5 looks amazing, what is the price of that? =) pm please, if somebody know.

Isnt imes using sum3d? i wouldnt have thought the cam would be an issue?
Did you try to mill an implant bridge on the 450I?

 

[greeny]

As a user of some CAD and some CAM programs, i would be advise 3shape d700(dont know about d800),and not to choose coritec 450i - this machine not so good to handle with, and default CAM is awful. It cant mill nothing more difficult than a bridge, alot of troubles.

ps. Datron d5 looks amazing, what is the price of that? =) pm please, if somebody know.

are you in the US? if so I can shoot you some estimated prices or get you in touch with our dental account manager to have a quick chat.

 

[reqvaa]

Isnt imes using sum3d? i wouldnt have thought the cam would be an issue?
Did you try to mill an implant bridge on the 450I?

Yes, but unfortunately have pretty weird issues with the milling(with the calculating) of individual abbutments and implant bridge (tried it once - had a problem with hexagons calculation, the CAM doesn't show any error, but milled the cylinders instead of hexagons, and cant find where is "wrong", as and support),and the support don't help us enough.
But, have to say, we r actually using 5cut - it is coritec450i from Shuetz, and their support works bad, they trying to help, but as they know not enough - they redirect to the imes, and that way for every single question(we cant ask imes directly, because of shuetz, and imes not so happy to help us, because it is not their work really , so everything going slow and unproductive).

 

[reqvaa]

are you in the US? if so I can shoot you some estimated prices or get you in touch with our dental account manager to have a quick chat.

I am agree, but d800 more expensive, i am offers d700 as a minimal solution =) i want work with d800 instead d700 too ))
Plus i made few implant bridges and alot of individual abbutments with d700, so it's working fine.

no, i am not in the US

 

[Drizzt]

Yes, but unfortunately have pretty weird issues with the milling(with the calculating) of individual abbutments and implant bridge (tried it once - had a problem with hexagons calculation, the CAM doesn't show any error, but milled the cylinders instead of hexagons, and cant find where is "wrong", as and support),and the support don't help us enough.
But, have to say, we r actually using 5cut - it is coritec450i from Shuetz, and their support works bad, they trying to help, but as they know not enough - they redirect to the imes, and that way for every single question(we cant ask imes directly, because of shuetz, and imes not so happy to help us, because it is not their work really , so everything going slow and unproductive).

If I understood correctly you tried to mill a screw retained bridge and instead of hexagons you got cylinders ? If this is the case , this is normal . Files for bridges at the libraries doesn't have hex , because unless the implants are placed perfectly parallel , which is extremelly rare , you won't be able to make the bridge seat at its correct position without you milling the hex by hand . For individual abutments it is another story . You need the hexagon for counter-rotation and having a standard position . If I misunderstood , sorry for this blah blah !!

 

[reqvaa]

If I understood correctly you tried to mill a screw retained bridge and instead of hexagons you got cylinders ? If this is the case , this is normal . Files for bridges at the libraries doesn't have hex , because unless the implants are placed perfectly parallel , which is extremelly rare , you won't be able to make the bridge seat at its correct position without you milling the hex by hand . For individual abutments it is another story . You need the hexagon for counter-rotation and having a standard position . If I misunderstood , sorry for this blah blah !!

No, i should been say more detailed, thats my fault =)
We tried to mill the bridge designed at 3shape, 4 implants, 2 with hexagons(because that was possible and we wanted to see, how it's would been done) and 2 without, solid stl model imported to CAM, was accepted and calculated without an errors, and milled wrong.
Maybe we were wrong somewhere, but other machine CAM calculated that correctly(old CAM, but have the preview of calculated tool pathes, and model view after milling),
although cant mill because of 3axis.