Beading and Boxing methods

[PDLtd]

My lab used to box and pour every single case that came into our lab. We then did a study and found out that our individuals who pour cases were so proficient that it was a complete waste of time, money and materials to box and pour cases. We simply free hand them now and have not noticed any difference. I'd love to hear from others out there as to the pros and cons of boxing cases.

Totally agree. is totally redundant. It's a training tool for students. But each to their own. If you want to do it, I really see no short cut for you. But know you can do just as well without it. Best of luck


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[JKraver]

Totally agree. is totally redundant. It's a training tool for students. But each to their own. If you want to do it, I really see no short cut for you. But know you can do just as well without it. Best of luck


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I am going to try a few things. See what works best. I will probably use play dough or wax bead and fill bead area to create the land area. I am primarily looking for the land area to do the proper peripheral roll. I vac mix so am not too concerned about bubbles.

 

[Craig T]

I am going to try a few things. See what works best. I will probably use play dough or wax bead and fill bead area to create the land area. I am primarily looking for the land area to do the proper peripheral roll. I vac mix so am not too concerned about bubbles.

I use this recipe and prefer it over Wonderfill. It is not as sticky and slightly firmer than Wonderfill. I use it in conjunction with Russman magnetic boxing strips that I cut a notch out for the tray handle.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Easy-Affordable-Play-Dough/

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RMBS01-RUSS...885221?hash=item3d1d423ca5:g:WgsAAOxyVLNSq5iW

 

[TomZ]

I understand that. But I would roll all prices together, not line item. One price per denture, to include all prelim work including casts. That way I know I get them to do all steps that should be done, without balking at it because it would cost an extra $20 for each custom tray, or $50 to do a processed base.

Bad idea...in order to project value in our products its best to illustrate by line itemizing what they are paying for. They need to know all the associated costs and involved steps in order to appreciate the work you fabricate for them. Otherwise we continue to be just lab guys and continue to get lab guy fees...

 

[Thedentureman]

 

[Makes Dentures]

Bad idea...in order to project value in our products its best to illustrate by line itemizing what they are paying for. They need to know all the associated costs and involved steps in order to appreciate the work you fabricate for them. Otherwise we continue to be just lab guys and continue to get lab guy fees...

I agree with you Tom. When I go to WalMart... my receipt does not say "groceries- $125". The old school pricing of one product= one price is one of the many reasons our "race to the bottom" bounces along down there.... Ex: the lab that charges $300 for a denture- all inclusive- is taking it in the shorts if there is a reset--whoever's fault it is... along with the extra car ride back and forth... Many lab guys-- to the demise of the ones trying to foster a lucrative business that they can raise their family on as well as save for retirement- do not EVER do a cost/ time analysis. That-- after factoring overtime (40+hrs) at time and a half and SUNDAYS @ double time... they would be better off financially working a minimum wage retail job. But there are sooooo many other factors in play.... such as money is not happiness. Each tech that is a business owner is in a different place. Some need a "place to hide", some cannot work with the "general public" some are in it to help people and serve a need in society... you get the drift as the list goes on forever. The only thing we all have in common is we all make teeth. We need to stick together-- not beat each other up on prices...

 

[JKraver]

That looks pretty nice and simple.

 

[JKraver]

I agree with you Tom. When I go to WalMart... my receipt does not say "groceries- $125". The old school pricing of one product= one price is one of the many reasons our "race to the bottom" bounces along down there.... Ex: the lab that charges $300 for a denture- all inclusive- is taking it in the shorts if there is a reset--whoever's fault it is... along with the extra car ride back and forth... Many lab guys-- to the demise of the ones trying to foster a lucrative business that they can raise their family on as well as save for retirement- do not EVER do a cost/ time analysis. That-- after factoring overtime (40+hrs) at time and a half and SUNDAYS @ double time... they would be better off financially working a minimum wage retail job. But there are sooooo many other factors in play.... such as money is not happiness. Each tech that is a business owner is in a different place. Some need a "place to hide", some cannot work with the "general public" some are in it to help people and serve a need in society... you get the drift as the list goes on forever. The only thing we all have in common is we all make teeth. We need to stick together-- not beat each other up on prices...

Itemize your list with what you are doing, and place the inclusive price at the top line with Product X
Denture-450
Prelim model work
Custom Tray
Bite rims
ect.
This is showing what you do for them, but are not line iteming something so they pick you apart over the 40 dollar custom tray when they will just want use a stock tray. It forces them to use your service because they are paying for it regardless. You can say this is what I require to make a repeatable quality prosthesis. This also allows you to charge a reset fee or any other misc. fees required for their product such as implant housings, frames. ect.

 

[JMN]

I'm getting a bit confused here.

Where in the wide wide world of sports are you getting prescriptions for dentures that you make a custom tray, get it impressed, make a stabilized baseplate with bite rim and get it indexed without him, his staff, his operatory and his office involved?
Really, I can't make a dime's worth of sense out of saying the doc doesn't know what you are doing, being that he wrote the script. I've got to be very confused here, because that is what it seems like is being said.

The doc knows you made a custom tray, he wrote the script.
The doc knows you made a stabilized baseplate with wax rim, he wrote the script.

On my side, if something goes out the door, an invoice goes with it, however models are rolled into the cost of whatever process I'm doing (no c&b here),they know where the model came from. (they wrote the script)

The opposite effect of an appearance of "nickle and dimeing" for every little thing can also happen. Does anyone line item for travel time on every invoice?

If you have to rely on the invoice to project your value to the doctor and his staff, you are already in trouble. And if the doctor is looking at the invoice instead of the work to decide whether he wants to continue to work with you, well...He's either not motivated by quality, or he isn't getting quality.

 

[TomZ]

Itemize your list with what you are doing, and place the inclusive price at the top line with Product X
Denture-450
Prelim model work
Custom Tray
Bite rims
ect.
This is showing what you do for them, but are not line iteming something so they pick you apart over the 40 dollar custom tray when they will just want use a stock tray. It forces them to use your service because they are paying for it regardless. You can say this is what I require to make a repeatable quality prosthesis. This also allows you to charge a reset fee or any other misc. fees required for their product such as implant housings, frames. ect.

Still a bad idea. price Itemize everything is my recommendation. Your still hiding stuff. If you charge for a reset, itemize it with the price so they understand there is a liability for not taking time to do it correctly clinically. I have been an owner of a one man lab for 30 years and I can tell you I would rather address objections head on and have a chance to explain why something costs a certain price then have them speculate as to why. Anyway, I believe this is one of many reasons why so many fail at having a profitable business and have been driven to sell or go work for someone else.

I track travel time. In fact, when I had local accounts the clock started from the minute I left the lab until the minute I walked back through the door. Of course I billed and itemize shipping both ways before the return is made. Gives value to the paper with the ink on it..

Nickels and dimes make dollars.

 

[Makes Dentures]

I'm getting a bit confused here.

Where in the wide wide world of sports are you getting prescriptions for dentures that you make a custom tray, get it impressed, make a stabilized baseplate with bite rim and get it indexed without him, his staff, his operatory and his office involved?
Really, I can't make a dime's worth of sense out of saying the doc doesn't know what you are doing, being that he wrote the script. I've got to be very confused here, because that is what it seems like is being said.

The doc knows you made a custom tray, he wrote the script.
The doc knows you made a stabilized baseplate with wax rim, he wrote the script.

On my side, if something goes out the door, an invoice goes with it, however models are rolled into the cost of whatever process I'm doing (no c&b here),they know where the model came from. (they wrote the script)

The opposite effect of an appearance of "nickle and dimeing" for every little thing can also happen. Does anyone line item for travel time on every invoice?

If you have to rely on the invoice to project your value to the doctor and his staff, you are already in trouble. And if the doctor is looking at the invoice instead of the work to decide whether he wants to continue to work with you, well...He's either not motivated by quality, or he isn't getting quality.

You speak as if the doctor actually sees the invoice...lol. May be true for you but in these here parts many of my statements are emailed/ faxed/ mailed to a corporate office. THE BEAN COUNTERS wanna see ALL THE BEANS. No line item for local pickup travel but if case is sent out via carrier--- customer pays.
I have to make a living or this is a waste of time.
Neither your or my billing is right or wrong--- it's whatever works for you...everybody has their own profit margin but the guys that work out of their breezeway boiling dentures on their stove next to dinner and sell them cheap to the account are only putting more profit in the accounts' pocket. These guys partially are why we keep bouncing off the bottom. CHARGE FOR YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND WORK!!!!

 

[JMN]

You speak as if the doctor actually sees the invoice...lol. May be true for you but in these here parts many of my statements are emailed/ faxed/ mailed to a corporate office. THE BEAN COUNTERS wanna see ALL THE BEANS. No line item for local pickup travel but if case is sent out via carrier--- customer pays.
I have to make a living or this is a waste of time.
Neither your or my billing is right or wrong--- it's whatever works for you...everybody has their own profit margin but the guys that work out of their breezeway boiling dentures on their stove next to dinner and sell them cheap to the account. are only putting more profit in the accounts pocket. These guys partially are why we keep bouncing off the bottom. CHARGE FOR YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND WORK!!!!

I see what you're dealing with now. All my accounts are 1-6 doc offices, most 1 or 2 and the doc writes the checks himself.
Just without that corporate layer, I couldn't begin to understand. Thanks!

This is defiantly a business, and you have to treat it as such, and like any other product or service, there are regional variants to customer expectation and customer management.
Or as a tv station looking for advertisers said "You can't sell soda to people who buy pop"

Again, thanks for clearing up my confusion.

 

[lcmlabforum]

This is in the FWIW department.
Used to do beading rope wax, then box, invert with water to make sure it is water tight seal.
Then also tried the pumice and plaster - esp. in dental school setting - students can end up scraping
against the impression material/peel if rough.
Now, time is money, and easiest to used generic alginate to box, and I can box even plastic stock
trays. Cost of alginate measured against time trimming a final impression to get proper land area
etc that my lab will appreciate.
Easier to trim without disturbing the impression itself, just need to learn the mix for proper consistency.
And no, you do not need separator if boxing another alginate impression even - will not stick.
I even box my reline impressions.
Used to use those expensive magnetic strips (Hardware store ones often have a sticker layer you have
to peel away) . Have been using old Panoramic xray films that are expired - just run through machines
to use fixer to remove the emulsion, split into 2 halves, then use paper clip to hold while boxing and
rubber band to hold while pouring.
Again, just my 2 cents.
LCM

 

[droberts]

Have not in 33 years had a client ask me the break down of my fees. Their main concern is communication,
and the final result of the prosthesis to satisfy the patient. Most all dentist today know the protocol of
fabricating a prosthesis. And most likely from the appearance of the stone cast / mounting, set -up / occlusion, wax up, etc., they will
know your knowledge of fabrication. As for bead / boxing? Simple square rope wax, and base plate wax. Place a wax tongue
in lower arch.

 

[TomZ]

A legend in your own mind..lol

 

[denturist-student]

I know this thread is older but I have seen and used a newer product by Leemark that uses mag strips and a short box with wonderfil in it to box and bead. Takes about 2 minutes and no need for waxing the peripheries.

 

[denturist-student]

I know this thread is older but I have seen and used a newer product by Leemark that uses mag strips and a short box with wonderfil in it to box and bead. Takes about 2 minutes and no need for waxing the peripheries.

I know this thread is older but I have seen and used a newer product by Leemark that uses mag strips and a short box with wonderfil in it to box and bead. Takes about 2 minutes and no need for waxing the peripheries.

 

[droberts]

I have found by using wax to bead / box impressions is that I can add amount of wax to voids, or thin
areas. See it all the time, it puts me back in control of what I am going to be working with.

 

[denturist-student]

I have found by using wax to bead / box impressions is that I can add amount of wax to voids, or thin
areas. See it all the time, it puts me back in control of what I am going to be working with.

I do understand your technique. I always need to touch up certain areas before making the final model. Preliminary models investing and the like do not need to be absolutely accurate but the final model we box and bead using the correct water powder ratio. So does spatulating it likely because of the bubble removal and the smoothness of the pour. Also I have found that leaving the case to bench cool for about 24-48 hours when press packed really cuts down on the amount of distortion and therefore final fit.

 

[denturist-student]

I have used these things but find they are a ****ens to get off because the stainless steel band needs to be tighter before they loosen off the cast. I have since then switched ot the mag strip and box method using wonderfill.