At CrossRoads to buy which brand of CAD/CAM

sixonice

sixonice

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Will be interesting to see how the dentists will remove these full zirconia crowns or even do a RCT? like paulg100 sticking with emax monolithic posteriorly and to be honest FGC's for 7's.

I have the 3shape scanner and am very happy with it, only a one man lab so outsource milling which works well for me

I agree with you 100% I posted earlier on this thread, giving my opinion about full zirconia crowns. I believe they are a fad restoration, there are so few folks that really need that kind of strength. Esthetically, I suppose they look better than a full gold crown, but whatever they oppose pretty much gets destroyed (sooner than later).
With 3Shape you get everything, and if full zirconia is your thing have at it, but it does SO much more.
 
JayH

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I just read through this and had a couple of things jump out at me. Forgive the randomness of my thoughts:

I don't think you need to know the difference between a stepper motor and an encoder in order to own a milling machine. I believe most of the major players offer service agreements that will put you out cost in parts when the machines break down. Generally, you get what you pay for - if you buy a lava machine or an imes machine they're pretty robust/industrial. Depending on the number of units you're looking at, you might even get by for a year or two with no mechanical issues on some of the smaller units like the M4D or the new AG CeraMill.

I would also take another look at the amount of time you think it takes to wax up a coping, or even a full contour crown by hand compared to digitally. The digital process takes more time than most seem to portray it. Place the die in the scanner, define the case, execute the scan process, design (requires dental IQ,) export to output device, queue up stock, let machining finish. One single coping can take 15-20 minutes. By hand? I've worked with some guys that would crank out full contour units by hand in 10-15 minutes per unit.

Zirconia restorations are not indicated for all preps. I managed the largest lava milling center on the planet for a couple of years and ended up with a PFM in the posterior in my own mouth during that time. The associated lab still did 50% or more of its work in PFM's.

The HT, HS, and FC material is decent stuff. It cuts nice, looks nice but it's only been in use for two-three years. I'm interested in seeing what happens after five or so in-vivo.

If you buy a milling tool (machine,) look to the future. Will you only be cutting Zr forever? Dry is fine. But if you want to take full advantage of CAD/CAM/CNC and the materials that this technology makes available to your use then look to a five axis wet mill for implant abutments and bars. I've been told by more than one person who knows the industry way better than I do that Implants are the future...
 
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charles007

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Thanks Jay for your imput....
One of the systems is a 5 axisdry machine- with a 5 axis scanner.....same company is working on a wet mill only in the 10k range...........

As far as waxing, I can't wax a full contour crown, seal margins, get the contacts right, with it ready to sprue in 20 minutes, no way.......Remember, you will also have to block out the die, mark margin, paint on the die hardner, paint 2 layers of die spacer, wait several minutes to dry.......then wax.........If anyone can do this in 30 minutes or less, then scan, or cast or press, I would not want to sell it to any of my doctors .....its going to have high occlusion, out of occlusion and loose, tight or open contacts....... Maybe there are a select group of techs that can do it, and that is rare........There are also techs that can stack 50 units a day in blocks to grind in....

One company charges $1000. to come to your lab for a yearly maintenance service. Others charge much more for a maintenance agreements .
Agreements, and yearly updates can be a real killer for a smaller lab...... and make it extremely expensive to own.........
I think one thing to look at is the speed/extra production an inhouse cad/cam can make knowing every crown will not be made in zirconia, and just how much a milled or outsourced wax patterns can help in production in the transition into (hopefully) more all ceramics zir/emax and less pfms.......

The imes-core machines do seem like a more robust /industrial machine, but what do I know ?.......Their are Ugo's, Honda's and Mercedes out there, the problem is,,,,,,, which is which........and does it make any or much difference. Everyone is selling the best machine, and most of these companies are extremely helpful without the high pressure to sell........

With scanners, I'm learning it can be very time consuming to scan a full model and opposing......Just wondering how many cases can be scanned in one hour for single unit crowns with full arch models??? do you really want to can a bite ? seems likes scanning opposing models would be more accurate but slower, than scanning a bite from a putty bite ? Can you scan the opposing model but scan fewer teeth to speed up the scan time,and at the same time have a more accurate scan-model over the inaccuracies of making a bite to scan ?
 
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Sydceramist

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Charles what did you end up getting???
 
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charles007

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This was posted in 2010, and I've learned a lot in the past 2 years !
I now have a Origin scanner/exocad.. second scanner I bought, first one didn't work out... Mihm Vogt sintering oven, sweet, and best choice ! and very close to buying a mill.. I will be milling before the end of this year.
Its been a long journey to not buy the wrong equipment, and don't get me started on zirconia, thats another world, and everyone has opinions on the best brand to use.. I've seen the light, and found Zenostar works best for me..

Sydceramist, are you scanning/ milling, what did you buy ?
 
Mark Jackson

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Two years ago on this post, everyone was saying that FCZ was a fad. Guess everyone got over that little brain fart finally.
 
CatamountRob

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FCZ is a fad.

Kinda like goatees on paunchy, middle age balding men.....:)
 
Bumfrey

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Just read this today and saw that it has just started up again after all this time. I just put a deposite down for a scan III scanner from zfx, so i can use them for the short term to learn the system. Then in the near future buy a mll for Zr , but still send them large span bridges and large implants bla bla bla.
I am very excited about the new mills coming out and the green cocr materials.
Gonna wait as long as i can to see how they pan out, but i so want to mill inhouse!
How are you getting on with exocad Charles? cos that's what i opted for.
What do cocr copings and zr copings/full con Zr crowns cost from milling centers in the old US of A? (seeing as our downunder dollor is the same now)
Glad Obama won what do you guys think? Romney looked a bit Bushy to me.
 
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Gita

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@charles 007: so what's your first scanner? the one u said didn't work out?
 
desertfox384

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Bumfrey, I think most of us would take "a little bit Bushy" over this new age Stalin. We sure do love his tax increases and unprecedented spending and borrowing... The problem with our country right now is many of us dont yet realize the mess were in.. it has to all come crashing down before we'll accept whats going on.
 
rkm rdt

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My 3 Shape was paid for in one year.Not a bad roi.
 
Sydceramist

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Hehe, was a while ago, I actually saw another post by you Charles where you talked about what you are using currently.

Lets talk about me, I am a MAD MAN, Amann Ceramill Base Manual milling machine. I bought this unit as soon as I opened, and at a cost of under 10g's was not to bad of an investment even though the work was not there yet, I am a firm believer in constructing as much of the crown framework and other parts in-house.

I am know looking at a CAD CAM system, I like the KAVO Everest. but will be patient the hard part is that when you only do 20 units (Premium Crowns) of Zir a month, it must be enough to justify the investment.
 
Bumfrey

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Bumfrey, I think most of us would take "a little bit Bushy" over this new age Stalin. We sure do love his tax increases and unprecedented spending and borrowing... The problem with our country right now is many of us dont yet realize the mess were in.. it has to all come crashing down before we'll accept whats going on.

I am far from an expert, but in the UK and Australia Bush was a total joke. I felt so sorry for you guys with that person as your leader. Anyways i don't mean to open a can of worms. Hope it all gets sorted, and i kinda get the impression it was much more to do with the banks and bankers than the government.
With the spending and borrowing i thought the debt is 1.2 trillion which is the same as when he took office.
 
rkm rdt

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I am far from an expert, but in the UK and Australia Bush was a total joke. I felt so sorry for you guys with that person as your leader. Anyways i don't mean to open a can of worms. Hope it all gets sorted, and i kinda get the impression it was much more to do with the banks and bankers than the government.
With the spending and borrowing i thought the debt is 1.2 trillion which is the same as when he took office.

I suggest you find a new news source.
 
desertfox384

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I am far from an expert, but in the UK and Australia Bush was a total joke. I felt so sorry for you guys with that person as your leader. Anyways i don't mean to open a can of worms. Hope it all gets sorted, and i kinda get the impression it was much more to do with the banks and bankers than the government.
With the spending and borrowing i thought the debt is 1.2 trillion which is the same as when he took office.

I second that suggestion on finding a reliable news source.. Our own media has only a 7% trust rating by our own people.. couldnt imagine what kind of news you get after its filtered its way to Aussie news. Obama has spent more than all of our past presidents combined.. and we have nothing but corruption to show for it all. It was government that got us into this mess (and partly ourselves) and they also promise to get us out.. ya right.
 
NicelyMKV

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When some of you start disappearing, please leave me a note!.. I can cut the grass or pick up garbage...
 
Bumfrey

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Wow thanks for putting me straight. Not much time for politics lately because of a CRAZY rush of work lately. I shall try to read into it a little more.
Thanks again
Peace
 
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