Amann Girrbach Ceramill Motion2 and Ceramill Map400

[Cinkor]

I am planing to buy the complete system from Amann Girrbach Ceramill Motion2 and Map400 can anyone recommend the system???

 

[CoolHandLuke]

probably several people can recommend it, whats preventing you from pulling the trigger right now?

 

[AnAppleaDay]

We bought the system almost 4 years ago and haven't had any issues.
We scan and design using both the Amann Map 400 and a 3Shape system as well and it accepts the files no problem.

It's a little more closed in certain aspects compared to a "pure" Exocad system, but the upside is turn-key convenience and solid support from the manufacturer. Since they control the chain, it's easier to troubleshoot, less variables than a system that you piece together.

Amann Girrbach also have a really solid offer when it comes to consumables. Their Zirconia (Zolid FX ML) is really nice, they have good PMMA materials, support milling e.max blue blocks and can even mill Titanium abutments.

For Zirconia sintering, make sure to get the Therm S furnace. We have the older Therm 3 and it doesn't go up high enough to sinter some Zirconias such as Noritake Katana, so the new Therm S (made by Dekema) is a more flexible choice.

If this is your first (and only) CADCAM system, I would say go for it and as your needs evolve, you can add more machines to it.

 

[Affinity]

Im not sure who others use for support but I can say that Amann support is not that great, maybe CAP does a great job. The good thing is I havent really had any service issues in the 4 years Ive had my motion, however, dont expect them to support that mill in 5 years when the new shiny model is out.. You will also not get upgrades for ceramill mind until months or years after exocad puts them out.

I think the machine is a great solution, but there are others on the market that are MUCH cheaper, like, half the cost of this machine and scanner... My money is on the new DOF Sharp 5x, which should be here soon...

If your on the fence, answer this: Why spend 2x as much to get a closed/limited version of exocad and hyperdent with Amann? Yeah I know they had a big expensive display in Chicago, big marketing, but I got stood up and tossed aside in the mix, and Im a ceramill owner.

 

[AnAppleaDay]

It's a similar analogy to buying a pre-configured performance computer from Dell or Alienware versus picking out parts and building your own.
If you know what you're doing and what your exact needs are, building your own makes sense and can get you more for your money, but otherwise, better to get the peace of mind of a big OEM standing behind their product.

Yes, the Amann Girrbach version of Exocad usually gets new features later on since they have to make their modifications to it before release, that's why I said it's more closed compared to pure Exocad.

However, having the complete system makes it more fool-proof than piecing together a scanner, design software, CAM software and a mill with various consumables.
Amann offers a complete package that's easy to use and understand. We never get collisions with our mill, rarely have any issues and CAP offers good support.

If you're a more advanced user and you're in the market for a second milling system, for sure do your research and piece together a complete system.
But when you get milling issues, be ready to have the mill manufacturer blame the CAM software and get ready to get the CAM software vendor blaming the mill or the tools or the puck.

 

[Cinkor]

We bought the system almost 4 years ago and haven't had any issues.
We scan and design using both the Amann Map 400 and a 3Shape system as well and it accepts the files no problem.

It's a little more closed in certain aspects compared to a "pure" Exocad system, but the upside is turn-key convenience and solid support from the manufacturer. Since they control the chain, it's easier to troubleshoot, less variables than a system that you piece together.

Amann Girrbach also have a really solid offer when it comes to consumables. Their Zirconia (Zolid FX ML) is really nice, they have good PMMA materials, support milling e.max blue blocks and can even mill Titanium abutments.

For Zirconia sintering, make sure to get the Therm S furnace. We have the older Therm 3 and it doesn't go up high enough to sinter some Zirconias such as Noritake Katana, so the new Therm S (made by Dekema) is a more flexible choice.

If this is your first (and only) CADCAM system, I would say go for it and as your needs evolve, you can add more machines to it.

When I ask them in Chicago if I'm able to design supra-structures over parallel milled implant bars, the answer was: there is a way to do it but there is no software for it. Which give me question marks to think when a colleague in Germany does it all the time. So, it's really some how a closed system. On the other hand you right that mixing units together can be painful until you get the system work. Having need a help means calling different companies for answers. Spending over 80k without a test drive like everyone does with a car is scary by just trusting the sales person and there are no independent test reviews like with cars. Therefor I really appreciate all your input. Thank you.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

When I ask them in Chicago if I'm able to design supra-structures over parallel milled implant bars, the answer was: there is a way to do it but there is no software for it. Which give me question marks to think when a colleague in Germany does it all the time. So, it's really some how a closed system. On the other hand you right that mixing units together can be painful until you get the system work. Having need a help means calling different companies for answers. Spending over 80k without a test drive like everyone does with a car is scary by just trusting the sales person and there are no independent test reviews like with cars. Therefor I really appreciate all your input. Thank you.

everyone starts out wanting a solution to a problem, and most people end up engineering their own solution.

its nice when theres software to do what you want, however not all companies can engineer the same method to make the final product.

how your german colleague might do it is using an AG system in conjunction with something else. if you want to copy that solution, the best thing is always to get all the information about it. so ask your german colleague how he gets from scan to finish, what all the things and steps are in that process.

nobody buys 1 system and is finished, done and happy. everyone buys and then immediately adds, modifies, or reconfigures their purchase to better suit their needs.

for example i can buy a milling machine, but maybe i'd prefer if it had a rigid steel table instead of bolted aluminum like many of them comes with. so i'll go buy a better table that doesnt come from the machine manufacturer.

in your case i think there may be a slight disconnect between what the machine is capable of, and what exocad can provide you with software. its highly likely that if your german colleague used a ceramill system, its ONLY for the part overtop the bars, not for the bars themselves. i know of no ceramill user who machines implant bars on a ceramill. because of that fact, it then falls on the shoulders of the exocad user to design the suprastructre using the software, which is merely a matter of knowledge how to use it to get a design that is correct to your standards.

take it from me, as a guy developing a digital denturism system, correct that there is no good software for 50% of the complicated methods of manufacturing for certain products, so you have to do things like importing to Rhino, scriptcad your own parts, use meshmixer, all to get your data to the right use-able point for importing to exocad.

define your expectations clearly before expecting someone to tell you if the system is worth buying. right now you might as well have walked into a Porsche dealership and asked if the Reddest one is the Fastest.

is AG a good system, sure, but define your expectations.

 

[Affinity]

Look you will not get all the bells and whistles with the AG exocad version... however it is correct that it is a standalone system and it does work well together. If I have learned anything after owning my first mill, is that this is NOT an 'open' solution (I have the D shaped pucks to prove it) however well it works. AG wants to keep you coming back to their teet for all your needs, however they throw a few crumbs every so often. Not diminishing the product, because it does work well, just know what youre getting.

Get an open scanner that accepts large articulators that can correlate to exocad virtual articulator.
Exocad open license and add modules
Get an open mill that runs hyperdent.

A la carte.

 

[Ryan]

I agree with all of the opinions here, but if this is your first CAD/CAM system I would not be starting out with parallel bars etc. You are going to have to take the time to learn the whole system CAD,CAM, and about what your machine can do. To many times people think that its just that easy, a couple clicks, some burs, a disc, and a machine and bang they are making money like crazy. Then they pick up the phone and call support even though they have had training but during training they did listen to a dam thing. Walk before you run in my opinion.

 

[DESS-USA]

Cinkor - you should talk to other companies providing scanners and mills for example Axsys Dental. Al Morad is on this group and they are a sponsor and worth the conversation.

 

[[email protected]]

I am planing to buy the complete system from Amann Girrbach Ceramill Motion2 and Map400 can anyone recommend the system???

Hello Cinkor, I would love to speak with you about the mill. Please check out our website at www.axsysdental.com you can reach me at 248.926.8810 or 734.260.3022

 

[deadhead]

We have been using AG mills for the past 2yrs and only had one issue with our motion2, which was a failure in the pump, but when I contacted customer service they responded the same day and we went through their service process and by the end of the week we had a new pump delivered ready to be installed. all and alll their machines and software is pretty good. we use exocad for design and then Match to nest the units and the motion 2 and Mikro(4axis) machines to do our milling. We started with a Roland DWX-50 which is a nice machine but the AG machines seem to mill faster and more accurately and not much green state work is needed, when the designer actually takes the time to make the design perfect lol

 

[Cathy H.]

AG was bought by Capvis from TA association. Will this bring some change?

 

[Affinity]

I will give you an example of a problem I see with the match2 CAM. Being that it is 'closed' or limited.. you cannot change the distance of the connector from the margin, like you should in hyperdent. It always puts them less then 1 mm from the margin, which you have to move every time because this causes chipping, especially when cutting them off, and you finish down your margin. This is a HUGE waste of time, having to move ever connector. The old software had a setting for this if I recall.. but if anyone knows if or how this is changed please prove me wrong! Without having to hack the xml code!

 

[George1616]

Does anybody know what is the scanner.Xlm file? I have a ag ceranill 400 but I have problems to run the calibrations tool. any suggestion ?