Amann Girrbach Ceramill motion

[murtonm]

Hi, I currently own a small 2 man lab with my wife in the UK. We are looking at moving into the Cad Cam market in the future but we have not made any decisions on system yet.

Unfortunately we don't seem to have any real dental forums in the UK let alone a forum with a dedicated Cad Cam section like this!.

One system we are interested in is the AM Ceramill scanner and motion bench top mill.

I have noticed that this system gets little or no mention on this forum but I'm not sure if this is because it's not available to you guys in the US or if it's just not worth mentioning.

We would be looking to outsource metal work for both traditional and implant retained cases and use the in house mill for mainly wax (instead of employing a metal worker) and the odd zirconia coping. We are also considering the 3shape scanner

Any info on the above system or any other similar system that would meet our needs would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

 

[DMC]

I have no opinion or heard no feedback on Ceramill good or bad. ???

Sorry.

 

[charles007]

Hi, I currently own a small 2 man lab with my wife in the UK. We are looking at moving into the Cad Cam market in the future but we have not made any decisions on system yet.

Unfortunately we don't seem to have any real dental forums in the UK let alone a forum with a dedicated Cad Cam section like this!.

One system we are interested in is the AM Ceramill scanner and motion bench top mill.

I have noticed that this system gets little or no mention on this forum but I'm not sure if this is because it's not available to you guys in the US or if it's just not worth mentioning.

We would be looking to outsource metal work for both traditional and implant retained cases and use the in house mill for mainly wax (instead of employing a metal worker) and the odd zirconia coping. We are also considering the 3shape scanner

Any info on the above system or any other similar system that would meet our needs would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

I also have a lab like yours and I would rethink/research, the idea of buying a miller for mainly milling wax.......If that's your main concern, buy a scanner and printer, or just a scanner.
Last year I talked with one of the first labs in the US that bought the Armann Girrbach Ceramill scanner and Motion miller, they were very pleased with the results, and had nothin bad to say about his system.
Milling wax probably takes about 10 minutes per crown- full contour, which is much slower than printing, plus milling wax cost more. If you want to mill wax, Mark, here on DLN, is very pleased using his 10k wax mill by Roland.
As far as the scanner, don't limit yourself to just one brand of scanner like the 3shape. Checkout the newer models on the market, you may learn that some are more acurate, and don't forget about 3M's ST scanner.

Once you decide what you want to buy, talk with several labs that have that system and take the time to visit those labs. Talk with companies that sell these system, you may learn that something new is just around the corner.
Charles

 

[murtonm]

Many Thanks for your info Charles.

I have seen on here that wax printing appears to be the way forward although I don’t know very much about it.
Milling/printing speed is not so important to us as we are a very small lab and we are not exactly churning units out but the cad side of things would allow us to take on more work.
I also take your point on the cost per unit as with printing I assume you get much less wastage.

I would be interested to find out if anyone has any info on their wax printers and approx setting up costs. I would also be interested to find out more about the Roland wax mill as we only do a small proportion of zirconia units and would be happy to outsource.

With regards to the scanner we are completely undecided as yet. As I have found out from the forum the 3m scanner is probably the most accurate but in the UK is only available locked to 3m. Their coping prices are a much higher price and I don’t think I could link it to an in-house wax mill/printer. I could be wrong on this and if anyone has any info otherwise I would be very grateful.

Thanks again for your help

Malcolm

 

[DMC]

Roland mill is a hobbiest mill. For students and Arts&Crafts. Glidewell tried to sell them years ago. They bought a ton of them and thought they could make a profit on selling them. I think that is over with now?? CADBLU also tried to sell them Three or more years ago. They also quit selling them.

Wax is wax...and you can only mill it but so thin. You will not be able to save any alloy costs. Copings will need to be .45mm or so to maintain dimentional stability while milling.

I doubt you will ever see a milled wax coping for sale as cheap as we can print you a coping. $2.95!

A good printer is $80k new. Very hard to find used.

You can link a few different printers with a 3M scanner. That's been that way for years and years. I use 3Ms "LavaConnect" to x-fer print files. Works great!

 

[Slipstream]

Hi Malcolm

What we tend to suggest - and in the interests of openness - I should say we are a UK based milling centre, is that you start with a decent scanner - that gives you design control over what you produce and let someone else print or mill from it - once your volume has grown enough then add your own manufacturing ability. The first of our labs has added his own SLS for "printing" and now a small mill - with the speed of new technology - you want flexible and open - the UK's first Lava mill is ? 7 years old (ours) and now we also have full contour zirconia and printed wax as well as the milling options, selective laser sinter COCR and now starting on lithium disilicate / blueblock and milled implants.
Your own scanner will pay you back in control and time saved long before your own wax milling or printing - although the prices are dropping all the time.
If you want to come and see the lab, you are more than welcome - not a bag of plaster in the building - all digital - we even have a small roland mill - not that I have ever seen it working - it's really aimed at one job a week jewellers.

Core 3D Centres | Tour

Bring a job with you and we'll show you how good the 3Shape scanner is

Colin

 

[AGV]

murtonm: I have the same problems and the same questions. A dad-and-mum lab with tons of heavy restotations made with 16 hours daily work, you know the rest ... I've been looking for digital solutions for many time, and i think:

1) I'm aged 46, so if i buy scanner+mill, sure will not be the last scanner or mill i buy.
2) I'm lab tecnich, not a cnc engineer, i need some practical, easy and if possible, not very expensive. So Roland is a good solution.
3) I will NEVER buy a closed system like Sirona, Amman,... I want to be free.
4) We are lucky, man, we live in Europe, next to German technology. Let's take advantage. Murtonm, look vhf camfacture AG – Home – CNC Machining Systems and Tools, imes-icore, ...
5) See you in IDS Colonne.

 

[paulg100]

Hi Murtonm

Am in the UK also in Bristol, welcome.

Now in the interest of saving you a whole bunch of money-

2 man lab - DO NOT by into milling your own stuff!

The outsourcing/milling market is at a competitive stage now where you will maybe save £10 per unit by milling your self (this is in material costs only and does not take into account the cost of the machine, tooling, servicing and faulty millings, so will infact be far less. The company with probably give you magical figures on profits and ROI, it will almost certainly be bull****)

How long is it going to take you to get an ROI on the mill by saving maybe £1-2 per unit?

Plus the fact you can get stuff milled by a PROPER industrial mill, not a bench top coffee machine.

I am not a milling center and have no affiliation with a milling center. Only the experience of buying two mills over the past 10 years and with a much larger lab than 2 people and i promise you it will take for ever to get a return, infact IMPOSSIBLE to get a return with 2 people.

Buy a scanner first, outsource and once you start hitting maybe 10-15+ size then MAYBE think about getting a mill.

FWIW

 

[murtonm]

Thanks guys for your information and advice.

I take the point on ROI for a 2 man lab buying a scanner and mill and I can see that it would take a very long time to make it pay.
My main reason however for considering a scanner and wax mill/printer is more of lifestyle rather than business.

Both my wife and I are currently working 7 days a week 16 hr days as I’m sure others of you are. Whilst I accept that owning/running your own lab is never going to be a 9-5 job we could do with reducing our working hours before we both die before the age of 35!

My wife takes care of the C&B work and I do the prosthetics. We are both hospital trained and spent many years working in the hospital environment so we are not the fastest technicians in the world although we don’t cut any corners.

My wife currently waxes up to full contour before taking putties and cutting back to make the wax coping. Whilst our prices reflect the extra work put it means we are doing long hours. We are currently happy with the amount of work we have and the amount we earn so I feel that being able to scan and mill/print a coping would allow us to produce the same quality/quantity of work in much less time moving the work/life balance to somewhere acceptable.

I am not a business man but a technician and we financially we do ok and I currently believe a one off payment of approx £50000 maybe worth it for a better life style!

 

[paulg100]

Yeah i can uderstand its not always just about the money.

If your just looking to mill wax than thats a different kettle of fish anyway, you can get much cheaper mills for wax only.

 

[Gdentallab]

i'm Interested in Amann scanner as well. From your posts i see that Amann is a closed system, while the provider insisted that it's an open system.
So to start with a scanner should i consider Amann, or 3shape? What are the pro and cons for both?

 

[murtonm]

Hi Gdentallab,

Just for your info the Amann scanner is not a closed system. If you wish you can send cases to the Amann M Centre for milling but you can also send them to any milling centre. You can also connect up to the ceramill motion for in house milling of Wax/Zir or any other in house mill i.e. Roland.

I have recently seen the scanner and mill in action and it is an impressive system. The scanner seems very well made with most moving parts in metal. The virtual artic works by scanning both articulated models together on a jig so it has plenty of strength to move 2 articulated models around.

The Amann software is very user friendly although from what I’ve seen
3shape probably has the edge.

The yearly Amann licence fee however is cheaper.

Where are you based?

 

[Mark Jackson]

I would buy a 3Shape scanner. As someone who owns a whole pile of different scanners, it's has become THE standard for us and most other people.

They are pulling away from the pack in my opinion.

If you want to step slowly into the water, I would look at the Roland mill. You can get started with wax for about $11k, or with a used one for about $8k. Once you get really good with it, you can then start looking at bigger mills for other materials, but for now, you could get your FGC's, eMax and press-to cases out on that mill. Will do 100+ easy per day.

As Scott said, the Roland is a lightweight mill, but perfect for cutting wax, especially if you can throw your used zirconia burs in it. and make your own wax pucks.

The output is open source and is compatable with just about every TPG on the market, world wide. It will make every device available to you, and if you want to start taking 3D scans from your doctors, they make an app for that.

Odd ball stuff has no place in my lab any more.

 

[Al.]

Odd ball stuff has no place in my lab any more.

OH ?

 

[TheLabGuy]

Geez Al, that's Mark's long lost cousin, I thought you knew something around these parts?...lol

 

[Mark Jackson]

Well, I guess I should have said, "no oddball systems for areas involving major production"

We just finished building this VERY oddball vacuum manifold downstairs in the workshop. It seemed like a great design in my head, but now that it's finished, I think we may go back to the drawing board.

 

[TheLabGuy]

Looks like something we use to have around in college

 

[Al.]

Thats the community bong in his break room.

 

[Mark Jackson]

Thats the community bong in his break room.

Drug free workplace.

It's for vacuum pigmenting zirconia before sintering. I'll post a picture for you later. It's amazing what a different it makes after 8 minutes under vacuum.

 

[Gdentallab]

i.ve been to a course with amanngirrbach, i like thier system , i don't know about 3shape to compare the two, but seems amann are the only one who have dynamic articulator in their software,and their software is advanced in a way yhat their milling machine with 4 axes can do the job of another 5 axis machine.
in the ids they will show very interesting new innovations,
such as the translucent zirconia, the glass ceramic blocks, the crco blocks that can be milled in their system and when sintered it will become a normal crco copings.