Alginate V's silicone for aligner set ups?

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Wilbur

Member
Full Member
Hi

A lot of my clients are located across county.

I think the detail you get pouring into Alginate imps is far superior then silicone. I find silicone smooths detail.

I usually warn the dr's to put Alginate imps in wet tissues before posting and I haven't really had problems for wire appliances.

What would you guys recommend?

Do dr's ever take silicone imps with wash (similar to crown imps) for aligners? - I think that would be best for detail and especially when putting in mail.

Thanks in advance,
Wilbur
 
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GarryB

Well-Known Member
Full Member
We find alginate best but as you said, transport and improper pacing doesn't help.

Silicone with wash is usually good and less likely to be damaged in transport.

What system are you using to move the teeth, digital or cut and eyeball?
 
W

Wilbur

Member
Full Member
We find alginate best but as you said, transport and improper pacing doesn't help.

Silicone with wash is usually good and less likely to be damaged in transport.

What system are you using to move the teeth, digital or cut and eyeball?
Hi GarryB,

Thanks for you message.

Do you find dr's will pay that bit extra if you ask them for silicone and wash. A dr I have pours up tiny plaster models from his impressions so that it'll be cheaper for him to send in the mail!

I was thinking of trying to work the price of collection of his cases into the aligner price (just to make sure that we can pour them accurately!)

We're using 3shape Orthoanalyzer software at the moment.

What kind of software do you use.

Regards,
Wilbur
 
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GarryB

Well-Known Member
Full Member
Hi GarryB,

Thanks for you message.

Do you find dr's will pay that bit extra if you ask them for silicone and wash. A dr I have pours up tiny plaster models from his impressions so that it'll be cheaper for him to send in the mail!

I was thinking of trying to work the price of collection of his cases into the aligner price (just to make sure that we can pour them accurately!)

We're using 3shape Orthoanalyzer software at the moment.

What kind of software do you use.

Regards,
Wilbur
Hi Wilbur,

For the life of me I can't understand why Dr's would haggle over a few Dollars, Pounds, Euros on top of what we charge for a course of Clear Aligners. The profit on these things for them is HUGE.....pretty big for us too.

I would inform your Dr's that by using a silicone and wash impression you will be able to supply him with more accurate and reliable Aligners for his patients.....leading to fewer ill fitting aligners and less chair time for him. If he is the sort of guy who is trying to scrimp on a few pennies by sending his own small models to save on postage he will well understand that less chair time means more money for him. If you want to charge him more to allow you to collect the impressions, give him the same reason as above.....better more reliable aligners.....more money for him.

I would also make it clear to him that if he makes his own models and the aligners you make from them don't fit it's down to him. If we make the models and the appliance doesn't fit its our fault, If we receive a model and we make an appliance and it doesn't fit its their fault. We can only work on what we are given. If this happens, we charge for a re make. I know this is easy to say when we are all looking for work but we don't want to paying for others mistakes. If they feel the pain of their mistakes, they are more likely to try and improve.

I also OrthoAnalyzer to produce a course of aligners in one go (say a course of 12 aligners) but also us the Scheu CA Clear Aligner system when producing aligners on a month by month basis. With this the Dr. will take one impression per month from which we will make the aligners for that month only. This is a very accurate system giving better results in a shorter space of time. It also attracts more patients wanting it as they are not faced with a large bill for a full course of aligners.....12ish if they only need 4. They pay for what they get and no more.
 
W

Wilbur

Member
Full Member
Hi Wilbur,

For the life of me I can't understand why Dr's would haggle over a few Dollars, Pounds, Euros on top of what we charge for a course of Clear Aligners. The profit on these things for them is HUGE.....pretty big for us too.

I would inform your Dr's that by using a silicone and wash impression you will be able to supply him with more accurate and reliable Aligners for his patients.....leading to fewer ill fitting aligners and less chair time for him. If he is the sort of guy who is trying to scrimp on a few pennies by sending his own small models to save on postage he will well understand that less chair time means more money for him. If you want to charge him more to allow you to collect the impressions, give him the same reason as above.....better more reliable aligners.....more money for him.

I would also make it clear to him that if he makes his own models and the aligners you make from them don't fit it's down to him. If we make the models and the appliance doesn't fit its our fault, If we receive a model and we make an appliance and it doesn't fit its their fault. We can only work on what we are given. If this happens, we charge for a re make. I know this is easy to say when we are all looking for work but we don't want to paying for others mistakes. If they feel the pain of their mistakes, they are more likely to try and improve.

I also OrthoAnalyzer to produce a course of aligners in one go (say a course of 12 aligners) but also us the Scheu CA Clear Aligner system when producing aligners on a month by month basis. With this the Dr. will take one impression per month from which we will make the aligners for that month only. This is a very accurate system giving better results in a shorter space of time. It also attracts more patients wanting it as they are not faced with a large bill for a full course of aligners.....12ish if they only need 4. They pay for what they get and no more.

Hey Garryb,

A lot of great points there! - thanks..

Lol I dunno what it is either about them trying to save a few cents with the money they make!

I had a look at the CA Aligner system, looks great but at only one set up per month for the patient, I can't follow how you can get better results in a shorter space of time.

Using the Orthoanalyzer software we do a change of setup every couple of weeks so twice faster then the CA set up?

Also, the option of the patient not paying for a full course of aligners and just a months worth wouldn't be too popular with my dr's whom I would imagine like to get as much of the money from the patient setteled asap!

Wilbur
 
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GarryB

Well-Known Member
Full Member
Hey Garryb,

A lot of great points there! - thanks..

Lol I dunno what it is either about them trying to save a few cents with the money they make!

I had a look at the CA Aligner system, looks great but at only one set up per month for the patient, I can't follow how you can get better results in a shorter space of time.

Using the Orthoanalyzer software we do a change of setup every couple of weeks so twice faster then the CA set up?

Also, the option of the patient not paying for a full course of aligners and just a months worth wouldn't be too popular with my dr's whom I would imagine like to get as much of the money from the patient setteled asap!

Wilbur
Yes the CA system is definitely more labour intensive and yes you can definitely do setups faster with the OrthoAnalyzer (I do more setups this way but just like the hands on approach of the CA system).

What size increments do you use for each tooth move? and how long will the patient wear each aligner?

With the CA system a 1mm movement can be achieved in 1 month. This is done by moving the teeth 1mm and then making 3 aligners for different thicknesses.....Soft, Medium, Hard. So the movement starts gently and the pressure is increased as the month progresses.

With not paying for a full course of treatment my Dr's pick up far more people willing to pay for minor tooth movement who wouldn't go ahead if they had to pay the full cost for a full course......more patients....more treatments.....more money. Patients pay for what they get, it's a fairer system for them.
 
W

Wilbur

Member
Full Member
Yes the CA system is definitely more labour intensive and yes you can definitely do setups faster with the OrthoAnalyzer (I do more setups this way but just like the hands on approach of the CA system).

What size increments do you use for each tooth move? and how long will the patient wear each aligner?

With the CA system a 1mm movement can be achieved in 1 month. This is done by moving the teeth 1mm and then making 3 aligners for different thicknesses.....Soft, Medium, Hard. So the movement starts gently and the pressure is increased as the month progresses.

With not paying for a full course of treatment my Dr's pick up far more people willing to pay for minor tooth movement who wouldn't go ahead if they had to pay the full cost for a full course......more patients....more treatments.....more money. Patients pay for what they get, it's a fairer system for them.

We do about 1.4mm movement every month split into weeks, although we are fairly new to the system. We have had reasonably good success but some failures which is very frustrating back and forth with the dr's.

It also really delays getting payment from the dr's when the prescribed movement doesn't work. We charge the clients when the aligners go out but a problem with just one aligner can cause a long delay in the whole invoice getting processed.

Buddy's of mine are doing moments weekly at 0.2mm per tray. We're thinking of trailing out that way to see if there's much of a difference in success etc. Do you use different thickness's of material doing a course of 3month aligners?

Regards,
Wilbur
 
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GarryB

Well-Known Member
Full Member
1.4mm per month seems a lot. Are your Dr's prescribing the amount of movement they want or are you calling these movements?

I have strict protocols that I won't go beyond unless the prescribing Dr. specifically tells me what to do.......I will ALWAYS get this in writing. I'm sure you know the problem with moving teeth too quickly is the risk of losing them. I have the backing of years of research when using the CA system as to exactly how far and fast I can set teeth to move.

If a patient loses teeth because of aligners I would not want to be in the position of defending myself in court as to who's responsibility it is......so that's why if I go beyond my protocols I always get it in writing from the Dr. that it's them who have prescribed it.

Back to your questions:

Yes longer treatments and more aligners can cause problems, as you said, if number two aligner doesn't fit, the whole process has to re start. Smaller moves are more predictable and can shorten the process in the long run with not having to do re sets (everyone wants everything so quickly!!)

When we do digital setups we use one thickness material all through treatment which is 0.8mm. When we use the CA system we use a thin, medium, hard foil to make the aligners.
 
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