Aidite 3D multilayer bridges deformed

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grantoz

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Username is that the aidite brochure ?i was actually talking about the ivoclar brochure and the new zirconia that patrick was talking about . ivoclar say that you can use it for full arches but only a 2 pontic maximum. so no all on 4s then.
 
tehnik

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Whitepeaks hyperion and aidite 3d pro multilayer are also usable on 14 unit bridges as the brochure states.
 
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Patrick Coon

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but its still only 650 mpa in the incisal 3mm in a 16mm high crown before being sintered, im looking at the brochure right now.

You are absolutely correct. BUT. . . how long have we been layering glass that is only 80-110MPa in those areas? we are talking about an area that does not need the High flexural strength. Where it needs strength in compression in centric to keep the bridge from flexing, you are getting the 1200MPa strength, but when the jaw goes into excursive movements and the Nerve-Brain-Muscle connection tells everything to calm down you do not need 1100+MPA (that is why when done correctly we can get away with glass ceramic in those areas).
 
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Username is that the aidite brochure ?i was actually talking about the ivoclar brochure and the new zirconia that patrick was talking about . ivoclar say that you can use it for full arches but only a 2 pontic maximum. so no all on 4s then.
Yes, thats from Aidite.
@tehnik Would you please share the specs, not just what the Chinese company says is ok to do, but the actual numbers on that product? Im pretty sure the chart I provided in a previous post is what covers it. Thats NOT strong enough to do large bridges.
 
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Username is that the aidite brochure ?i was actually talking about the ivoclar brochure and the new zirconia that patrick was talking about . ivoclar say that you can use it for full arches but only a 2 pontic maximum. so no all on 4s then.

Check the other companies information. You will find that most say a maximum of two pontics (or really don't give much information at all),as this is part of the standard indications for these strength materials. These are in the same Type and Class of materials as stated in the ISO standard.

"CopraSupreme Hyperion: Crowns and bridges up to 16 units with max. 2 pontics, veneers, inlays, onlays, primary telescopes, bar constructions"

Katana "ML and HT are limited to 2 pontics within a bridge.
When 2 pontics connect, the cross section should
be 12mm2 or more. The cantilevered pontic is limited
to 1 and cross section should be 12mm2 or more."
 
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You are absolutely correct. BUT. . . how long have we been layering glass that is only 80-110MPa in those areas? we are talking about an area that does not need the High flexural strength. Where it needs strength in compression in centric to keep the bridge from flexing, you are getting the 1200MPa strength, but when the jaw goes into excursive movements and the Nerve-Brain-Muscle connection tells everything to calm down you do not need 1100+MPA (that is why when done correctly we can get away with glass ceramic in those areas).
I think you do need 1100mpa as the periodontal ligaments are not there when doing full arch implant cases . Thats why most people use Zi for full arches as they have seen to many chip as Vmk,s whats the average compressive strength or the porcelain on a vmk at the correct thickness and support? its about 650mpa. Patrick you should know this because you guys at Ivoclar talk about how much stronger something is once you bond it like with emax.As far as the 2 pontic thing goes i understand there is a certain amount of a55 covering going on but im pretty sure Zirkonzahn doesnt feel the need to do so and there prettau 2 dispersive transitional colour and transitional transluscency blocks have been around for a while now .
 
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I think you do need 1100mpa as the periodontal ligaments are not there when doing full arch implant cases . Thats why most people use Zi for full arches as they have seen to many chip as Vmk,s whats the average compressive strength or the porcelain on a vmk at the correct thickness and support? its about 650mpa. Patrick you should know this because you guys at Ivoclar talk about how much stronger something is once you bond it like with emax.As far as the 2 pontic thing goes i understand there is a certain amount of a55 covering going on but im pretty sure Zirkonzahn doesnt feel the need to do so and there prettau 2 dispersive transitional colour and transitional transluscency blocks have been around for a while now .
VMK...80-90 Mpa shear strength.
 
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yes it is but once you bond it to metal the strength goes up because the porcelain shinks onto the substructure puting it into compression provided you dont go over 1.5mm thickness..
 
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I think you do need 1100mpa as the periodontal ligaments are not there when doing full arch implant cases . Thats why most people use Zi for full arches as they have seen to many chip as Vmk,s whats the average compressive strength or the porcelain on a vmk at the correct thickness and support? its about 650mpa. Patrick you should know this because you guys at Ivoclar talk about how much stronger something is once you bond it like with emax.As far as the 2 pontic thing goes i understand there is a certain amount of a55 covering going on but im pretty sure Zirkonzahn doesnt feel the need to do so and there prettau 2 dispersive transitional colour and transitional transluscency blocks have been around for a while now .

Absolutely correct, under compressive forces glass is very strong. That's why you can take a flat piece of window glass and lay it on a flat hard surface and roll a car over it without it breaking. But once you put a flaw in the surface it is laying on we are now looking at a shear force and it will break at that flaw with very little effort.

Lets take a perfect scenario and say that the substructure of a restoration was designed perfectly, no flaws. And the technician did everything perfectly with layering and firing. And the dentist cemented that restoration perfectly. Centric is perfect. When the patient clenches in centric all the ceramic is under compressive forces (this is where your 650MPa compressive value comes in) and nothing is damaged. Once that patient goes into excursive movements, compression is out the door and now we are talking shear and the layering ceramic is again only in that 90-110MPa. And if all excursive movements were not worked out to disperse that load (or take that load completely off it) the restoration chips or breaks.

However, when we discuss high strength ceramics that are monolithic (whether lithium disilicate or zirconia),we do not see this. In fact I have a study showing monolithic lithium disilicate taking 3 times the newtons (same measurement as MPa) of a layered zirconia restoration (layered zirconia-350N, lithium disilicate-over 1000N, with 10 times the cycles).

Given this information, I would have no problem using or recommending PRIME in these situations.

As far as the two pontic thing, I believe this is an FDA thing (now I can't say why all companies recommendations are not that way). I say this because, this is the same recommendation we give for all our high strength zirconias, and we can't even give that recommendation in Canada. Because of Health Canada we can only recommend up to 6 unit restorations with maximum two pontics in a row. In fact if you change the language/country on the ZZ website from English(US) to English(CA),the maximum recommended bridge length goes from 16 to 6 (yet they still show and talk about the "Prettau Full Arch Bridge" on that page).
 
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patrik why dont you guys ever compare layered zi to layered emax or mono emax compared to mono zi you always have a twist in there so you can never compare apple with apples.So patrick you dont agree that the porcelain is still in compression even when you go over the incisal provided you have correct support and you dont go over the maximum 1.5mm thickness
 
DreN4do

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i like using the Ivoclar's LT line for bridges of more than 4 units to almost a full arch with gingival
 
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20190801_172307.jpg

that's the LT 1 (25mm)... great translucency too.
 
Patrick Coon

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patrik why dont you guys ever compare layered zi to layered emax or mono emax compared to mono zi you always have a twist in there so you can never compare apple with apples.So patrick you dont agree that the porcelain is still in compression even when you go over the incisal provided you have correct support and you dont go over the maximum 1.5mm thickness

Sorry, we were talking about why you thought the 650MPa materials in the incisal area of the PRIME disk was not strong enough, and you brought up the chipping of VMK materials layered on the zirconia. I was just bringing up the differences in monolithic and layered restorations and citing a study I had from 2009 that showing that a monolithic restoration (whether lithium disilicate or zirconia) is better able to withstand the shearing forces in mastication.

As for the compression question, of course the ceramic is in compression around the substructure, this is what strengthens the bond to the substructure (along with the chemical bond created from the oxide layer and opaque) and compensates for, or relieves, the tensile stress inherent in the glass. But, what we are talking about are external compressive and shearing forces that act upon the restoration during mastication.
 
tehnik

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So I have a ivoclar prime block to test out, but I don´t have sintering parameters... Can somebody share?
 
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So the new product Aidite 3d multilayer PRO is out and it should be stronger on the margin side. I am using aidite (what I have left) only for crowns and 2-3 unit briges that are meant to be splinted - no pontics.The material is beautiful but it has too many requirements in able to use it on the large span bridges. Good luck to the laboratories who are only using aidite. Like to see how long a bridge with 3 pontics in a row lasts especially when the pontics are super high and the preparations have support on the 600mpa side :D

Sorry didn't mention one fact. We dont do cases with more then 1 pontic. In this cases doctor put more implants.
 
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The 3D concept is novel. , Everyone wants a Zirconia that does everything and no technician skill involved. But combining 3Y-type of Zirconia and 5Y -type of Zirconia together to achieve a do it all solution is not really a good solution.The different chemistries within the layers cause tension all over the constructions and this will lead to breakage and deformation.
I use a 4Y-type of Zirconia for my large units, which still had better translucency than the 3y- type of Zirconia , but comparable strength , sometimes a bit of micro-layering or texturing sometimes minimal facial cut back , other times nothing at all.

To use these do-it -all solutions at this stage is reckless.
 
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Hi, All!

I am having a problem with the Aidite zirconia as bridges longer than 4 units will rock on the model. No matter the design and using the stabilizer. The same files with other zirconia are perfect. Many times it looks like one of the dies is 1mm above the plate, but as said, after milling it from another zirconia it is perfect. I am using programs sent from Aidite and using nabertherm ovens. So far all bridges are deformed and unusable. Aidite send long bridges program with 1450 degrees final temperature and also that is wrong as the material is opaque on such a low temperature (normal 1530). Has anybody else had such an issue with the material and knows a solution?

Best regards.
In my opinion, the use of your curves is questionable. Each brand has its own curve, as I know, Aidite's curve is 1500. If there is any problem with sintering according to the curve required by the manufacturer, it is better to communicate with the technical staff of the manufacturer to check whether their technology needs support. Thank you so much
 
tehnik

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If you look a bit further, I posted the following:
A little update. Aidite representatives visited me a while ago and their technician modified oven sintering programs so the program for large bridge takes about 24 hours. I have been able to get 6-7 unit bridges with acceptable results, but large bridges are bent. I have been trying different supports but with every one the support itself also gets bent. It is bending in the direction of enamel (softer) side. And it deforms like the shape of spoon. So dimensionally in different directions. After contacting to Aidite again, they just show me bridges that are not bent.... so no technical help. Also they suggested me not to try anymore and agreed for me to stop using the material overall. Money and time wasted without correct support from the reseller and the company itself.
Only logical larger job, that could be done with this kind of material, is all on X.
 
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