A reintroduction of sorts with multiple ??

L

LifeLike

Member
Full Member
Messages
39
Reaction score
0
Hey everyone ,
I would like to re introduce myself to this forum, came here about 8 months
or so ago and asked some questions about the Sirona system , which I had already put in the lab I would post a link to that thread but not quite sure how to do it, at any rate I have worked with the newest version of the whole system for about 9 months now and this is the conclusion I have come to.
First when purchasing I was given the option of returning the system within one year of purchase and only having to pay interest on loan , and no depretiation, so I feel like I can give this somewhat of a fair review.
Having never delved into the cad aspect I had only previously out sourced my e.max and zirc copings and FC crowns. So I knew I had to do something to get onboard the Cad/cam train. I looked at several systems and there was so many options and so much confusion as which does what and what do I really need. Well when I got this option from Patterson I felt like I really could not loose and would give it a try.
So far I have not experianced the complete and total nightmare some of you have had to deal with. Most of my Drs. give me really text book type preps and adequit clearance for restorations , Fits for e.max take on average about 1.5 to 2 minutes , fits on zirc about the same. That being said these times are only on the perfect preps, as I have started to pick up more buisness preps have begun not to be quite so perfect and times on those could be as much as 5 - 15 minutes , But in order to compete with the bigger labs my prices had to drop and my Dr. preferences had to change to accomodate more buisness.
So as my time comes near to give back system or keep it I have some more questions for those in the know.
I am now reviewing a trial of the 3-shape system , it seems much more intuitive tha sirona , but as of now a bit more clumsy , but I also know this will change with use, what I do like is the open archtecture and a lot of the features I dont have , but will the new sirona 4.0 software change that ? I havealso come to the conclusion that I really dont want to outsource if I dont have to . so in order to do the same restorations I am looking at the Origin 4000 system.
I will be going to chicago and will get to look at all of the above , Origin , 3-shape and Sironas new 4.0. I really am leaning heavly towards the 3-shape with the Origin mill for roughly the same cost as what I have now, plus open archtecture , as always I am thinking about re-sell if it ever comes to that. will basicliy get squat for Sirona , but am thinking could recoup most for the other.
sorry for being this long winded , but now can reply and hopefully validate some of my concerns . Will any of you be in Chicago , maybe meet up at the bar for a drink. In the past year I have learned much from this forum and value the tips and insight , from now on will hopefully be able to contribute myself as I have about 26 years of pent up knowledge in the dental lab.
Thanks.
 
L

LifeLike

Member
Full Member
Messages
39
Reaction score
0
couple of quick questions
1. does everything being scanned with 3-hape or the Origins scanner have to be sprayed?
2. can the Origin mill , mill wax patterns well or should those be sent to *** to be printed?
3. can the origin mill go from wet for e.max to dry for zirc quickly or is it a PITA . or does it wet mill zirc ?
 
NDLMilling

NDLMilling

Member
Full Member
Messages
70
Reaction score
4
couple of quick questions
1. does everything being scanned with 3-hape or the Origins scanner have to be sprayed?



No. only reflective surfaces need spray. Regular stone models don't need it. When you use spray, you want to use as little as possible to avoid adding material to what you're scanning. To much spray can result in poorly fitting copings/crowns


2. can the Origin mill , mill wax patterns well or should those be sent to *** to be printed?

Unlike printing, anything you mill is limited by the size of the smallest tool in the mill. So, highly detailed anatomy, and crowns over sharp preps usually do not come out as well as they can when you print.


3. can the origin mill go from wet for e.max to dry for zirc quickly or is it a PITA . or does it wet mill zirc ?[/QUOTE]

you can go from wet to dry fairly quickly, you just need to wipe the inside of the machine down.. not too much of a PITA, but it can become tedious.
 
L

LifeLike

Member
Full Member
Messages
39
Reaction score
0
Mark,
I am not trying to sell the Sirona system, I have a couple more months left to be able to return it, but was saying if I ended up keeping it a then tried to sell it I probably would not get much for it but I f I went with another system like 3 shape or origin I could probably recoup a lot better if the need to sell came about , at some point I would like to retire from this and just have a cold beer.
 
L

LifeLike

Member
Full Member
Messages
39
Reaction score
0
NDLmilling ,
thanks for the info, I also only have to spray reflective materials now, was hoping that was the case with the 3-shape and Origin scanners I have been looking at

I figured printing was probably the best option, talked with someone from *** and they actually hooked me up so I could send files from my Sirona to print , looking forward to trying that out , maybe if I can get this to work and the new Sirona 4.0 is much much better than the 3.86 I can entertain just keeping what i have.
talked with Origin today and they said it was not to big a deal to go from dry to wet mill , but they are also trying to sell me so Thought I would ask someone who actually has done that.
 
RileyS

RileyS

Well-Known Member
Full Member
Messages
2,866
Reaction score
461
I was at B&D last week and they have come out with some amazing advances in the dental world!! Everytime I go there (10 min away) I leave way excited. In Chicago they will be showing off their latest software program. I see it as a way to compete with same day chairside milling, which in my opinion will only become bigger in the near future. Having an ORIGIN mill will get you in on the new software and techniques they've come up with. It is very cool! They also have new zirconia that looks great!
We have the inlab red cam, I'm one of the board members of sirona haters. It currently collects dust and is used for the same day cases that come around once a month. It's a very non-judgemental machine in my experience...it doesn't care if you give it a good or bad prep, it mills chipped and open margins equally!
Currently using 3shape and loving every second!
Keep us informed with your decision.
And...milling is actually good if you have the space. I prefer *** prints but they're far away:(
Seriously Mark?!? You lookin to buy?
 
L

LifeLike

Member
Full Member
Messages
39
Reaction score
0
RileyS,
Do you think it is because of the red cam that you get open margins , mine is the blue and I also have the mill with four motors, most of the time my I can get my margins to fit really well, I know now that this system is outdated , like the best version of a ten year old car, where's as B & D's Origin is an updated machine chock full of new tech. I have milled about 1500 crown , bridges and copings in the last nine months, for me it's not that bad but I know there is much better, I am now using a trial of 3 shape and just sent in an 8 single units e.max cutback anterior case to Diadem, they will scan and help with the design, am looking forward to the results , I am afraid I will be shocked by the outcome being so much better that I will have to really consider a change.
 
RileyS

RileyS

Well-Known Member
Full Member
Messages
2,866
Reaction score
461
I would scan and send the file to a mill center so that you get back exactly what comes from the mill. If you send them the model then they will make sure margins and fit are good before you can evaluate. We have the red scanner for inlab. It is a huge factor in poor mills but the MCXL still can't handle real world preps like other machines will. Why not have something that will do it all and do it well? How are your cadwax? Ours just broke burrs and we were told to stop milling it. Origin will give you good results for wax.
 
C

charles007

Well-Known Member
Full Member
Messages
3,897
Reaction score
453
LifeLike, you already know what to do with the inlab.. :)
So the question is, do you want to dry mill only, or wet mill also... and pay the extra to wet mill..or, maybe use the newer zirconia coming soon for same day crowns... The way I look at it from what I've heard, Emax may have peaked in 2011-2012, and just maybe, a very slow down hill decline later this year with newer improved zirconia coming soon, and cheaper mills to buy..
Even with the Origin mill milling emax, you may still see chipping sometimes, but a much better emax mill using a 3shape or Orign scanner over using any inlab mill and scanner..
If your still undecided, how much longer do you think the inlab system can compete with any Orign mill and Origin/3shape scanner ? it can't now.
Still undecided, have you seen any used 3shape or origin scanner for sell ?
Any used Origin mills for sale ?
Any used inlab systems for sale.... there a dime a dozen, and dropping in value everyday, and almost impossible to give away..
 
L

LifeLike

Member
Full Member
Messages
39
Reaction score
0
RileyS,
you are probably right about the fit from the mill , but in the trial I dont have the scanner only the software , so I have to send the model for them to scan , then they send scan back to me to design and return to them to mill, then they send back models and crowns, we shal see .
I did mill with the cadwax but at first it just coated burs with plastic and rendered them useless in a matter of seconds, then i started putting ice in water tank and it would complete the mill , but fit was not good and it took forever, so just gave up on that .
Charles007,
I know, I know , but as of now we still do about 50-50 e.max and zirc, we also have the Lava Ultimate resin/zirc, I dont really have chipping issues with e.max but I do mill margins thicker and just finish by hand it is much quicker and pretty much works , but it does take a few minutes more per crown that I dont think I should have to spend. As far as wet vs dry I hear what you are saying for the price of the upgrade from the 3000 to the 4000 to be able to mill e.max it is pretty steep, may think about just pressing e.max and forget about milling it I also know it is caheaper and more accurate but milling it is really fast, can turn around crowns in as little as an hour if need be.
Definatley agree with you on the re-sale value. Cost issues are a definate factor in my decision.
what kind of compressors do you use on your mills , they want 7 grand for a compressor and filters !!
Thanks for all the replies ,
Thanks for the replies.
 
harmonylab

harmonylab

Active Member
Full Member
Messages
383
Reaction score
10
you should be able to get the same compressor (5hp CP rotary screw w/ dryer) from toolking for 5k or so... it's what they recommended to us, actually.

and since you can switch to origin, why would you even consider not doing so? even with inlab 4.0, you'll be way behind on software functions, not to mention how massively buggy inlab software has always been.

The fits are so much more better with origin, without needing to waste time fitting them in, on any prep you get from docs.
 
C

charles007

Well-Known Member
Full Member
Messages
3,897
Reaction score
453
Same here 5k 5hp
 
L

LifeLike

Member
Full Member
Messages
39
Reaction score
0
Harmony,
One of the things is I already have the system in place and spitting out crowns, comfortable with the software , which I know will get comfortable with any after use , with the Origin mill it could be as long as three months to get mill in Lab , thats a long time to be left with no mill, about 4-6 weeks for scanner, so would have to shipp cases and do a pure outsource thing for a while, I do most of my cad work in a week so that would really be tight.
The other main issue is cost , The Origin price I was just quoted was another 30 grand, that some large coin for a poor boy like me. But that being said I will weigh all the pros and cons and make a decisiion after Chicago.
thanks for the info about the compressor, so a $1500.00 compressor from Lowes or Home depot wont cut it?

Charles,
email sent
 
NDLMilling

NDLMilling

Member
Full Member
Messages
70
Reaction score
4
talked with Origin today and they said it was not to big a deal to go from dry to wet mill , but they are also trying to sell me so Thought I would ask someone who actually has done that.

If you do end up getting a wet origin mill, I would recommend installing a separate compressed air line for cleaning all of the hard to get to areas on the mill. Very handy.
 
JohnWilson

JohnWilson

Well-Known Member
Full Member
Messages
5,487
Reaction score
1,575
I thought it was an absolute no no to clean any mill with compressed air?

Its my understanding its supposed to be soft brushed and vacuumed
 
P

paulg100

Well-Known Member
Full Member
Messages
2,163
Reaction score
42
"what I do like is the open archtecture and a lot of the features I dont have , but will the new sirona 4.0 software change that ?"

Prepare to be EXTREMELY underwhelmed with the 4.0 software.

Really all your getting is the ability to design more than 1 restoration at a time and a new UI. WOW, really revolutionairy Sirona, more marketing BS. other systems has been doing this for what..4-5 years now? Pathetic.

Their main focus is the surgery market not Labs so dont expect the same kind of lab focused functionality that you will get from a Lab only company.

All labs are to Sirona is an afterthought for maximising the R&D on their surgery system.

Just look at 3shape or Exocad and its painfully obvious.

OK blood preasure rising .. :mad2: time to think about something else.
 
Last edited:
Mark Jackson

Mark Jackson

New Member
Messages
1,908
Reaction score
13
I thought it was an absolute no no to clean any mill with compressed air?

Its my understanding its supposed to be soft brushed and vacuumed

You are 1000000% correct John. Never blow compressed air into a mill. You just force the worlds most abrasive dust deep into bearings and moving parts, or in the case of wet mills, you jam stuff into seals that will then leak and ultimately fail.

Not to mention the airborne contaminates and dust in the lab. Use a soft brush and a vacuum with a HEPPA filter.
 
NDLMilling

NDLMilling

Member
Full Member
Messages
70
Reaction score
4
You are 1000000% correct John. Never blow compressed air into a mill. You just force the worlds most abrasive dust deep into bearings and moving parts, or in the case of wet mills, you jam stuff into seals that will then leak and ultimately fail.

Not to mention the airborne contaminates and dust in the lab. Use a soft brush and a vacuum with a HEPPA filter.



I suppose that's correct.

I've always used it to free up the dust/grime around the bottom and tool holding areas, as they tend to get the most build up. I don't think we've ever directly blasted any bearing/seals with air, so that's good. I don't think that my methods are any different the air pressure that comes our of the spindle.
 
Mark Jackson

Mark Jackson

New Member
Messages
1,908
Reaction score
13
I don't think that my methods are any different the air pressure that comes our of the spindle.

Except that the spindle air blows OUT, and outside air blows IN.

I have 11 mills here and have only needed routine maintenance in all these years. I guess whatever gets the job dones is all that matters, FWIW
 

Similar threads

Top Bottom