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CoolHandLuke

CoolHandLuke

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there s a 3rd way to do a full arch, if indeed you have NO palatal data to match. which i find not hard to believe, but hard to forgive.

instead of transferring the waxup, you can make an incisal index. basically on the opposing make a matrix out of your putty or playdough, and affix it to your antagonist ensuring the matrix covers at least 1 mm of the incisal tips of the waxup. scan this WHOLE OBJECT as your antagonist. you can then proceed building the case, however you will need to custom form each of your teeth and your antagonist will no longer be suitable for use in the Virtual Articulation. but i'm guessing with a full arch case you probably don't want to use this feature of the 3shape in the first place.

what you do when duplicating the waxup over your working model is best termed "double preparation scan" which is actually what 3shape calls it.

i'd really love to see some photos of this impossible case.
 
REJ

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in my experience unless gross model discrepancies are on each prep you can scan preop, the solid, and then align the dies to the solid. Only limitation is if anything is slightly off on a bridge.
 
Sevan P

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Hey Guys,

I've been searching the forums for advice on correlating the 3Shape pre-preparation scan to the preparation scan. Does anyone know of a thread where people are talking about it?

We often run into a situation where we must overlay a scan of a diagnostic model over the top of a scan of the working model. The problem is that there are no landmarks between the two models for the software to find the registration. We have experimented with scanning jigs and zhermack matrices creating artificial palettes to no avail. Without the simple ability of digitally "nudging" the pre-preparation scan into place we are at a stand-still. Maddening! How has 3Shape not fixed this by now?

Any ideas?

Thanks.

What version are you running? I remember on the older version when aligning the pre preparation scan you had the arrows and you could rotate and move it that way, but now on the newer version it is all done with the three points. If you don't have any matching landmarks you might be SOL. I wish they could make the option to align the per-preperation model in the design end just as if you were to align or move the opposing with the articulator, that would be sweet.

Like CHL said no issues with palatel tissue scan knitting, as long as you DO NOT MOVE THE MODEL when removing the tissue.

Do your wax-up go full arch or just the anterior teeth? I would say make sure you have a few land marks for matching purposes. Or make sure the models have the palatal tissue in them and maybe try lining them up that way.

From the 3shape manual 2012

"If necessary, you can select model with the cursor and rotate it in a desired direction with the trans-box points. Click OK button to complete alignment."
 
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Lazulitone

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there s a 3rd way to do a full arch, if indeed you have NO palatal data to match. which i find not hard to believe, but hard to forgive.

instead of transferring the waxup, you can make an incisal index. basically on the opposing make a matrix out of your putty or playdough, and affix it to your antagonist ensuring the matrix covers at least 1 mm of the incisal tips of the waxup. scan this WHOLE OBJECT as your antagonist. you can then proceed building the case, however you will need to custom form each of your teeth and your antagonist will no longer be suitable for use in the Virtual Articulation. but i'm guessing with a full arch case you probably don't want to use this feature of the 3shape in the first place.

what you do when duplicating the waxup over your working model is best termed "double preparation scan" which is actually what 3shape calls it.

i'd really love to see some photos of this impossible case.

Thanks again CoolHandLuke,REJ,and Sevan P,

I would love to show you all photos of the case in question, but it went out for metal try-in yesterday. Perhaps I'll take some shots when it comes back in. In this particular case we have a stone model of the patient's full arch temporary( Upper and Lower) and a separate model of the prepared situation poured first as a solid and also poured and articulated with the prepped teeth. On the working model we have a few extraction sites healed over with prepped teeth. The working model has been separated and ditched. All in all, the teeth on the upper are about 20 inches tall off the stone base, which is about 18 mm itself(38mm). We scan at 25MM deep so we capture about 5mm of base stone. All of our landmarks would normally be on that trimmed die ditched area. We are conservative when we trim but the reality is that we can't keep everything and what is left is never enough to correlate. Remember that the preps are completely covered by the temp in the other model.

REJ's comment about scanning the solid is superb and works well under different circumstances, however, we can't do this because we have implant abutments in the extraction sites. Also, the working model has to be ...cleeaaann... because the bridge registration is critical. Those dies must correlate into place by themselves or the bridge is toast.

This is no joke, we do cases like this all the time. We have all the same problems as everyone else. Our best bet on these cases is to make an "artificial palette" using a scanning jig we built in the lab but we suck at it right now. Our correlation comes out slightly off. You can tell by looking at it on screen.

It's an awful shame that cases like these can't be done 3Shape because of an engineering oversight. Sevan-- I do believe I remember earlier versions having the ability to nudge the models into place more than a year ago. Also, the two models were colored differently so you could see your alignment easier. What happened?

Thanks guys.

BTW, the case is in metal trial and turned out just OK. We did split tops for pressing the anteriors but we threw them out when we tried them on the articulator. Lets hope the 2013 software will fix some of these problems.
 
stumpf

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Today i had to design 8 unit case from PMMA.I had 2 models.The study(pre-preparation) and the working sectioned model).I drilled 3 small points to the models in the same area...after scanning i just put the 3 reference points to theese drilled points and the result was absolutely good.
 
Lazulitone

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Today i had to design 8 unit case from PMMA.I had 2 models.The study(pre-preparation) and the working sectioned model).I drilled 3 small points to the models in the same area...after scanning i just put the 3 reference points to theese drilled points and the result was absolutely good.


That sounds like the kind of thing we are trying to do with our jig. How did you get the 3 drill marks to be in the exact same place on both models?
 
stumpf

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it's easy.just try it.You can find similar points in the model(gingiva,teeth...etc)Please remember just small drills!!!!:D
 
Sevan P

Sevan P

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it's easy.just try it.You can find similar points in the model(gingiva,teeth...etc)Please remember just small drills!!!!:D

Or small drops of wax will also work.

Well got to see 2013 at the DLOAC and some pretty nice features are add into the mix. The layout has changed a bit. You can set a minimum occ clearance in the wax knife when adding and build up the low spots to your occ clearance setting, way better veneering performance, no more WTF is that when previewing your smile composer.

If anyone wants to have a feature added to the new software send Karl an e-mail at 3shape now, Tuesday 11-20-2012 he is submitting a list to the programmers, get your request in and hopefully it might be in 2013.

[email protected]

PS any one running version .9 on 2012 i'm on .7 is .9 solid?
 
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Dont know much on this subject so this maybe stupid !!! Could a vac formed pull-down be used and transfered / located on working model preps before its cut out and trimmed ?
 
Sevan P

Sevan P

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Dont know much on this subject so this maybe stupid !!! Could a vac formed pull-down be used and transfered / located on working model preps before its cut out and trimmed ?

What are you tying to do?
 
Sevan P

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Are you trying to see outline of temps ?

SO you want to overlay the unprepared model over the prepared model?

If you spray the suck down I don't see why not. But the suck down is larger then the model itself due to the thickness of the material so you can not get the exact overlay, and it will only scan the outside of the suckdown so when you preview it you will have a gap of however thick your suck down is. Why not just duplicate the model or pour a second cast prep one and not the other then scan the unprepared as the pre preparation? You can not scan the inside of the suck down either. To overlay you need to have a stone model.
 
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martintay

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SO you want to overlay the unprepared model over the prepared model?

If you spray the suck down I don't see why not. But the suck down is larger then the model itself due to the thickness of the material so you can not get the exact overlay, and it will only scan the outside of the suckdown so when you preview it you will have a gap of however thick your suck down is. Why not just duplicate the model or pour a second cast prep one and not the other then scan the unprepared as the pre preparation? You can not scan the inside of the suck down either. To overlay you need to have a stone model.

Maybe inject pull-down with gingifast and use that duplication on model...... just trying to help.
 
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martintay

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Maybe inject pull-down with gingifast and use that duplication on model...... just trying to help.

Thought the problem people were having was referencing a temp situation to a trimmed working model on occasions (with to few ref points ).
 
Sevan P

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Yes Lazulitone was having a issue, saying he has no reference points to match. But it all comes down to case planning. Knowing how to prep for certain cases helps out in the actual scanning and design of the case as well. There have been plenty of great ideas on how to work around this issue. But the way 3Shape as it setup can also be a huge setback, no slider in the scanning end to see how well lined up the models are, I can even get the arrows like in 2010 so that you can move it around. I could be a lot easier but some one doesn't want to make it easier on us.
 
Smithwick0208

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3shape users...I am having some issues with my 3shape bogging down. I run around 11 design stations and 7 scanners. All of which at on 2012 2.7.8.12. I only keep 2 months of work on the database. Everything else is off the database on a backup folder. Are there any tips or tricks to speed up the database? They all seem to run fine and then will slow down. Depends on what day of the week it is I guess. I would say about 200 to 300 units go through our system daily. Are there ways to configure the database to keep from bogging down? Anything would help. Thanks a lot!

Also, is there an easier way to delete cases from dental manager besides selecting and deleting a group of files?
 
CoolHandLuke

CoolHandLuke

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every so often any database can corrupt. it helps to uninstall the program managing the database (in this case dental manager running assumedly from a network installation) and then re-install.

however if your design group is running on each their own licenses with no mixing of the cases across your various computers, this may be a bigger problem.

but dont take my word for it, i am not an IT person, i just use the system i was handed.
 
k2 Ceramic Studio

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Mehdi

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Hi guys, recently I've got a Trios POD. Because of network problem (low speed connection),I can't have good connection for Trios. So any possibility to receive scanned file through flash disk or sth else?
 
zero_zero

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Hi guys, recently I've got a Trios POD. Because of network problem (low speed connection),I can't have good connection for Trios. So any possibility to receive scanned file through flash disk or sth else?

That would make the system truly open...;)
 

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