3d printer for dental use recommendation

[krashd133]

i should have put money on it

anyway you only need to print a model for two reasons.

1. its a layering case
2. its an implant case.

everything else is fast, easy, and model-free. printing the resin to cast the gold - or press the unit. even partials with the right eye for design in theory could be printed and cast and finished sans model.

but again, that is totally depending on your design and your consistency in investing, and knowledge in devesting. personally i wouldn't go that far yet (model-free in cast partial) but i can envision the method to approach it.

printed models for everyday cases are a waste of time, money, and material, unless your dentists specifically ask for one i wouldn't do it.

I agree it's a waste of money but my clients aren't sold on model-less work and if there is a problem with fit the model can be used as a "calibration" or reference point

Do you do layer cases off 3d prints? How the feedback on fits and adjustments?

On a pressed case wouldn't you use a model to adjust contacts and occlusion since it grows a little after pressing?

 

[CoolHandLuke]

yes we layer all anteriors. the only "trouble" the ceramists tell me is they would prefer the tissue regions were softer or to have a second model to displace the tissue however this might more be due to the age of the ceramist rather than an actual problem with the model.

i say that with no disrespect - because truly nothing can evolve and still utilize the same procedures. something must change and although i will explore a soft tissue print tomorrow (in software only - the printer is currently out of soft tissue material) i have made no guarantees or promises.

if you design it right and know the size of the growth you can press an emax model-free. trim the contacts a bit more than usual, take it out of the bite a fraction more, pull the cusps down a hair... of course that's just guesstimating. its got to go through 3 more sets of eyes before it goes out the door. 1 emax invester/devester, 1 ceramist to check and modify any stain, and glaze, then the QC. those 3 people will pass a bur over it, add glaze, and possibly add or remove after i am finished designing. so i don't change anything except the minimum thickness value.

if i were all by myself - i think i would still do that, and rely on polishing to take off enough from the contacts, bite, and bulk. 5 more minutes polishing and no worries of underbuilding - seems fine by me.

 

[rkm rdt]

Or use a different material.

 

[Glenn Kennedy]

They who??

What the heck is wrong with you people and these half-a55 answers?

Either spit out some real info, or shut-up. LOL

The ones that did that thing with it the other day.

 

[krashd133]

yes we layer all anteriors. the only "trouble" the ceramists tell me is they would prefer the tissue regions were softer or to have a second model to displace the tissue however this might more be due to the age of the ceramist rather than an actual problem with the model.

i say that with no disrespect - because truly nothing can evolve and still utilize the same procedures. something must change and although i will explore a soft tissue print tomorrow (in software only - the printer is currently out of soft tissue material) i have made no guarantees or promises.

if you design it right and know the size of the growth you can press an emax model-free. trim the contacts a bit more than usual, take it out of the bite a fraction more, pull the cusps down a hair... of course that's just guesstimating. its got to go through 3 more sets of eyes before it goes out the door. 1 emax invester/devester, 1 ceramist to check and modify any stain, and glaze, then the QC. those 3 people will pass a bur over it, add glaze, and possibly add or remove after i am finished designing. so i don't change anything except the minimum thickness value.

if i were all by myself - i think i would still do that, and rely on polishing to take off enough from the contacts, bite, and bulk. 5 more minutes polishing and no worries of underbuilding - seems fine by me.

What do you use to hold the model-less emax when its passed over with a burr and stained and glazed.

Sounds like you 'guessing' a little bit on how much material will be removed by the investor/devestor and ceramist...how do the Dr's like the fits? If contactor occlusion is short do you just ask for a pickup impression or how else do you solve the issue with a model-less pressed emax?

 

[CoolHandLuke]

if margins or contacts are short a pickup impression would be the go-to solution however the initial approach was via IOS and the modifications will be as well. so the margins are never short, only over extended and easily polished up. the bite and contacts are always too heavy, and easily polished to correct fit.

no bur should ever touch those emax. if one does, theres an error in communication that needs addressing.

no margin should ever be short via ios. if one is, theres a bigger issue at play.

that being said there are times where a check model is useful to an emax. extra especially when new clients come, or when the doctor is newly trying emax as an indication. these are the doctors we are currently servicing, and it is the planned near-future of the lab to go model free with these clients asap.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

however because we are printing a resin pattern it is easy to quickly touch up pre-investing with mild abrasives. a single pass is sometimes all it takes to compensate.

 

[krashd133]

I'm curious to hear more about your 2 material soft-tissue printer and how this upcoming test goes...that's pretty cool tech, plus I have a bet with a friend about making a model like that. If you could share a pic I would be very grateful

 

[CoolHandLuke]

when i get the material i'll make the prepared model to photograph.

 

[DMC]

OK, CoolHandLuke guessed correct....its off a Form 1 printer

I understand you want a removable die model and articulator mounts but thats just a design issue. I could buy the $7500 3shape model builder dongle, then design and export to stl. On a low-budget method you could just get a bite from the dentist to confirm occlusion and mount arches in bases if you really need mounted models

I realize you want pics of remove able die models with mounts(only a software/design problem) but I threw pics up to get some thoughts on the subject of outside 'dental' industry printers.

I'd like to see some pics of your guys prints. I understand you guys want justify(consciously or sub-consciously) your 40-80k investment but I think we should be open to figure out what the best 3d printer out there is? If we all took the same file and printed it to see who got the best result it might prove interesting.....food for thought


I did a lot of tests before we bought of the exact same file from some outsourcing and the Form 1 was as good if not better than a few of the other printers, but not the best. The new Envisiontec machine for 80k seems very accurate(advertized 16um) but is it worth the extra 75k for an extra 15-30 microns when the scan file is the most accurate part anyway?


Here's a pic with the original model and a bunch of prints off the scan of it. The one on the far right is Infinident crap, yet I had one worse than that from Cadblu off their 3D systems printer(not pictured and I can't remember the model # it was)

Model builder from exocad is less than 1/3 of that 3shape cost! What a rip-off!! LOL

Send me a file to print for ya. scott at dominionmillingcenter d0t c0m

I know a forum member here who hated the Form 1 printer. Go figure?

Sold it on ebay.

 

[eyeloveteeth]

a friend of mine who co-owns a start up for in-office rapid prototying - aka instead of sending specific parts for each retail store, to equip each retail store with a printer and to print the necessary parts (focused on accessories of course) -

He hates the Form 1 printer.

 

[krashd133]

a friend of mine who co-owns a start up for in-office rapid prototying - aka instead of sending specific parts for each retail store, to equip each retail store with a printer and to print the necessary parts (focused on accessories of course) -

He hates the Form 1 printer.

I know your friend has experience with the printer but have you toyed with any 3d printing? I can see if your doing larger pieces and don't need micron details from them (ie flat walls and sides) there are a lot of cheaper & faster FDM printers out there in the market

I think the SLA technology works best for dental IMO, and the Form 1 is just one of the first of many affordable SLA printers coming down the pipeline. Lets post some pictures of prints and let the results speak for themselves. I know there's a few better printers out there for 80K+, but thats a little rich for my budget especially if all I'm buying it for is to convince my clients that model-less works

 

[eyeloveteeth]

I know your friend has experience with the printer but have you toyed with any 3d printing? I can see if your doing larger pieces and don't need micron details from them (ie flat walls and sides) there are a lot of cheaper & faster FDM printers out there in the market

I think the SLA technology works best for dental IMO, and the Form 1 is just one of the first of many affordable SLA printers coming down the pipeline. Lets post some pictures of prints and let the results speak for themselves. I know there's a few better printers out there for 80K+, but thats a little rich for my budget especially if all I'm buying it for is to convince my clients that model-less works

so really what should be done is order models from CAP or *** until you have enough to justify a high end printer yourself. That's how i look at it...versus getting something mediocre

 

[krashd133]

so really what should be done is order models from CAP or *** until you have enough to justify a high end printer yourself. That's how i look at it...versus getting something mediocre

I already outsourced from 4 or 5 places with different brands of printers and IMO they weren't that much more impressive if any better(a couple were worse). Plus the 4-5 day turnaround with shipping cost turns it into a $20 or $30 proposition every time, while the Form 1 printed model costs about $2. I understand your point, and I'm not arguing that the Form 1 is the best printer....but what does an extra 10 or 20 microns cost($40-60K) when you want to end up model-less anyway?

 

[eyeloveteeth]

I already outsourced from 4 or 5 places with different brands of printers and IMO they weren't that much more impressive if any better(a couple were worse). Plus the 4-5 day turnaround with shipping cost turns it into a $20 or $30 proposition every time, while the Form 1 printed model costs about $2. I understand your point, and I'm not arguing that the Form 1 is the best printer....but what does an extra 10 or 20 microns cost($40-60K) when you want to end up model-less anyway?

i hear you 100%... it just seems silly because it's not like the model is actually guaranteed to be accurate - so what if you have an open contact on the model, but it is closed on screen? I guess that's why, while the Pearlstone DP3500 models may not seem any better...i feel if you're gonna order something, those are the most accurate thus far.

I know there are places in India that are milling models and cost about $15 each and i get it back pretty fast.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

I already outsourced from 4 or 5 places with different brands of printers and IMO they weren't that much more impressive if any better(a couple were worse). Plus the 4-5 day turnaround with shipping cost turns it into a $20 or $30 proposition every time, while the Form 1 printed model costs about $2. I understand your point, and I'm not arguing that the Form 1 is the best printer....but what does an extra 10 or 20 microns cost($40-60K) when you want to end up model-less anyway?

model-less as ive said can only be accomplished on monolithics. all layered items will need models. so PFM, PFZ and PFEmax. any larger roundhouse bridge. any case requiring reduction guides or implant jigs. every bit, then, of not-simple restorative work.

 

[eyeloveteeth]

model-less as ive said can only be accomplished on monolithics. all layered items will need models. so PFM, PFZ and PFEmax. any larger roundhouse bridge. any case requiring reduction guides or implant jigs. every bit, then, of not-simple restorative work.

speaking of which - tried the "making a matrix to a press to" and putting lipstick on the inside.... it actually worked!! Way more work than just doing a model, but it worked! haha

 

[krashd133]

i hear you 100%... it just seems silly because it's not like the model is actually guaranteed to be accurate - so what if you have an open contact on the model, but it is closed on screen? I guess that's why, while the Pearlstone DP3500 models may not seem any better...i feel if you're gonna order something, those are the most accurate thus far.

I know there are places in India that are milling models and cost about $15 each and i get it back pretty fast.

What's the accuracy of those milled models from India and what articulator system do they use? Id think they'd be similar to the itero models...

eyeloveteeth- Can you send me the info for these milled models please? I might like to try them out

 

[DrNK]

Do you have any thoughts about italian DWS printers?
I`m searching for ortho models printer

 

[samalab]

The ones that did that thing with it the other day.

Hello, I am a technician from Greece. I want to ask if your company is represented in Greece or Europe. I am interested in buying a 5axis milling center.