3d print scum

[Jack_the_dentureman]

Hello fellow professionals.
this question may amuse some, annoy others, and explain something to people like me.

Why a printer like phrozen mini 8k, elegoo mars 3 pro or anycubic mono 4k are not enough for our applications?

I'm not talking about the size of the print, but the final effect of the print.
So why should I spend a lot of money on a special dental printer to print inlay in varseosmile crown plus, instead of making money from a cheap printer?

 

[vladpereverzyev]

Hello Jack_the_dentureman,
in my opinion it is not true that they are not suitable,

I have used several of the low-end ones, even DLP and they are certainly valid for our work. Just learn to make the most of them and always at maximum resolution and use resins for our sector.

 

[Gru]

Hello fellow professionals.
this question may amuse some, annoy others, and explain something to people like me.

Why a printer like phrozen mini 8k, elegoo mars 3 pro or anycubic mono 4k are not enough for our applications?

I'm not talking about the size of the print, but the final effect of the print.
So why should I spend a lot of money on a special dental printer to print inlay in varseosmile crown plus, instead of making money from a cheap printer?

We live in an era of ever increasing regulation. Are you comfortable with using materials that haven't received the regulatory seal of approval for dental use? The materials may be approved, but often the entire process is what makes it ok: resin, printer, wash, cure-all validated.

 

[zero_zero]

So why should I spend a lot of money on a special dental printer to print inlay in varseosmile crown plus, instead of making money from a cheap printer?

You shouldn't, any 4k, 385-405 nm printer should work fine... might need a strong post curing unit since they recommend using xenon strobes, perhaps an old Cristobal machine ?

 

[mightymouse]

I’ll start by saying validation is not to be worked around. It’s there for our safety as well as the patient. With that said doctors are able to use resins not yet validated for a particular printer just because they have a degree. They get the benefit of the doubt because they took a course in university that taught them the parameters to stay in. Was 3D resins even brought up when they were in school? Are they taking educational classes or just sales pitch classes? Who knows but we as lab techs must stay within the proper protocol. We don’t get the benefit of the doubt we get the inspection.

On another note I am a HUGE fan of non dental printers but I have to stay within the protocol. I don’t have a lot of capital and although I’m partially digital I’m moving much slower because I haven’t taken the investment of the $10-15,000 printers. Luckily for me the resin companies are seeing there is a huge market of people like me who just want the option to print outside of the big name printers. Keystone, Pro3dure, Ronin, Dentfab are just a few that are validating as much printers that are capable as possible.

It takes times and some are better than others even from the same printer company. Spoke to the person responsible for validation on Ronin resins and he said an interesting comment. He said in regards to Phrozen printers the Sonic and Sonic XL moved along relatively well but the mini for denture resins is in his words was “rough”. So we can just pop a resin in and play around with the settings and hope the chemical bonds will hold the way they were intended to. Maybe some printers and resins aren’t meant to coexist.

 

[doug]

I love this. Some of You, again, want to cut corners in getting your product finished and out the door, but constantly bitch about how cheap the docs are. A validated work flow is there for a purpose.

 

[JonnyLathe]

Another thing to consider is ease of use. An Asiga or SprintRay has all of the settings and workflows dialed for their validated resins.

Is a phrozen as capable of curing something as an Asiga or Sprintray? Sure! But you're going to be spending a lot more time tinkering with settings and profiles for the resins you want to use. Check out what Rick Ferguson is doing on the dental 3D printing group. Amazing stuff.

My main printer is an Asiga, but I'm considering purchasing some Phrozen mini 4ks for models (and immediate load AOX since you can print faster with the Ferguson Mini Plate) to eliminate some of load I put on the Asiga.

 

[mightymouse]

. So we can just pop a resin in and play around with the settings and hope the chemical bonds will hold the way they were intended to.

Meant to write “CAN’T”.

 

[tuyere]

There are applications where a cheap consumer-tier printer is absolutely sufficient, and others where you shouldn't be considering it. Models and dies used as parts of larger processes are one thing, actual end-user printed appliances are another entirely. Don't screw around with anything but validated workflows for the latter, you should be filled with a creeping horror at the idea of improperly-cured nightguards or denture components ending up in peoples' mouths on your account, these compounds are nasty unless worked with in very specific ways and while maintaining high standards of quality.
The other aspect is that, just like with cheaping out on an imported mill with no domestic support, you're going to be doing a lot less production and a lot more screwing around with settings and test prints. This is a lot less impractical with printers than it is with mills, which are much more nuanced and challenging machines to operate optimally across varied materials and applications, but it's still a significant factor for most labs that don't have the luxury of a lot of screwing-around time.

 

[JonnyLathe]

There are applications where a cheap consumer-tier printer is absolutely sufficient, and others where you shouldn't be considering it. Models and dies used as parts of larger processes are one thing, actual end-user printed appliances are another entirely. Don't screw around with anything but validated workflows for the latter, you should be filled with a creeping horror at the idea of improperly-cured nightguards or denture components ending up in peoples' mouths on your account, these compounds are nasty unless worked with in very specific ways and while maintaining high standards of quality.
The other aspect is that, just like with cheaping out on an imported mill with no domestic support, you're going to be doing a lot less production and a lot more screwing around with settings and test prints. This is a lot less impractical with printers than it is with mills, which are much more nuanced and challenging machines to operate optimally across varied materials and applications, but it's still a significant factor for most labs that don't have the luxury of a lot of screwing-around time.

100%

Vendors will tell you printers are plug and play to make the sale. That couldn't be further from the truth. They don't tell you all of the trial and error, the post processing, curing, and finishing you have to learn that's completely different than what you're used to. Printers can be very very finicky and cleanliness is paramount.

 

[doug]

My Asiga printers are pretty much "Plug N Play"

 

[JonnyLathe]

My Asiga printers are pretty much "Plug N Play"

Now that I have my Asiga dialed it's a solid work horse. I had a steep learning curve learning to print however.

 

[tuyere]

My Asiga printers are pretty much "Plug N Play"

Most printers are 'plug n play', dental and hobbyist both, at least until you run into problems- then you need to actually understand the nuances of the resin printing process to figure out what's going on and correct the issue. Otherwise you're just getting failed print after failed print and wasting material changing variables arbitrarily (are my supports too thin? are the contact points too small? are there islands? is there debris in the print tank? is the FEP film damaged? is this just a lousy bottle of resin? etc etc) hoping for an improvement.
"It's plug and play!" is basically always a pernicious sales tactic, imo, one that often hobbles the effectiveness of newly-digital labs because it convinces potential buyers of machines that they can immediately launch into 3D printing or milling without any specialized training or personnel, which is never true- and it makes spending money on that training or those skilled personnel a much harder sell after the fact, even after it becomes apparent that a digital lab doesn't run itself.

 

[The Lab Guys]

Another thing to consider is ease of use. An Asiga or SprintRay has all of the settings and workflows dialed for their validated resins.

Is a phrozen as capable of curing something as an Asiga or Sprintray? Sure! But you're going to be spending a lot more time tinkering with settings and profiles for the resins you want to use. Check out what Rick Ferguson is doing on the dental 3D printing group. Amazing stuff.

My main printer is an Asiga, but I'm considering purchasing some Phrozen mini 4ks for models (and immediate load AOX since you can print faster with the Ferguson Mini Plate) to eliminate some of load I put on the Asiga.

How quick can the mini plate print an arch? Do you use Rosen Screws in your design? If so how accurate are the screw channels?

 

[JonnyLathe]

How quick can the mini plate print an arch? Do you use Rosen Screws in your design? If so how accurate are the screw channels?

I've seen some people print arches with the mini plate in as little as 20 minutes. I can print an arch in about 35 minutes on the Asiga. The screw channels always print accurately, although I don't use Rosen screws I use DESS 19.018. The only time the channels don't come out well is if you don't clean them well enough with IPA after printing and before curing.

 

[The Lab Guys]

Which model are you using? We have the nextdent 5100. Accurate but it takes to long for same day delivery. To print 2 full arches I'm probably an hour and 45 minutes for a slow accurate print, 15min wash and 30 min cure time. I can do a fast print at about 45 minutes but my screw channels wont be accurate.

 

[JonnyLathe]

Which model are you using? We have the nextdent 5100. Accurate but it takes to long for same day delivery. To print 2 full arches I'm probably an hour and 45 minutes for a slow accurate print, 15min wash and 30 min cure time. I can do a fast print at about 45 minutes but my screw channels wont be accurate.

I use an Asiga Max UV. Print at 170 micron without fast print, 30-40 minutes depending on the height of the arch. I always print flat occlusion side down. 5 minute wash and 7 minute cure in the otoflash.

 

[harmonylab]

Most printers are 'plug n play', dental and hobbyist both, at least until you run into problems- then you need to actually understand the nuances of the resin printing process to figure out what's going on and correct the issue. Otherwise you're just getting failed print after failed print and wasting material changing variables arbitrarily (are my supports too thin? are the contact points too small? are there islands? is there debris in the print tank? is the FEP film damaged? is this just a lousy bottle of resin? etc etc) hoping for an improvement.
"It's plug and play!" is basically always a pernicious sales tactic, imo, one that often hobbles the effectiveness of newly-digital labs because it convinces potential buyers of machines that they can immediately launch into 3D printing or milling without any specialized training or personnel, which is never true- and it makes spending money on that training or those skilled personnel a much harder sell after the fact, even after it becomes apparent that a digital lab doesn't run itself.

nah. almost every single printer I've used started off with a ton of issues. envisiontec vida being the only one that never had any issues or even print failures (aside from user error).