3 Shape Scanner

[paulg100]

rabia,

Anyones gonna need more info to give you an informed answer.

to start with,

- how big is your lab
- are you looking to mill for in-house only, also to outsource, or to outsource only.
- what materials do you want to mill.
- what is your budget

Might be better to start or move this question to a new thread, as its a question getting asked alot and the answers are getting mixed up in other threads?

 

[paulg100]

on the topic of the 3 shape scanner, could anyone tell me how hands on the scanning process?

Our current scanning solution (sirona ineos) is to manual and time consuming for my liking, and i hope to upgrade to a proper desktop solution at some time in the not to distant future?

Is it just a case of pop the model in, press start and walk away until its finished?

 

[rabia]

rabia,

Anyones gonna need more info to give you an informed answer.

to start with,

- how big is your lab
- are you looking to mill for in-house only, also to outsource, or to outsource only.
- what materials do you want to mill.
- what is your budget

Might be better to start or move this question to a new thread, as its a question getting asked alot and the answers are getting mixed up in other threads?

Paul, i am a control freak!! my lab is small but i hate to outsource anything, cause i hate to delay my clients in case anything goes wrong with the milling center!
looking for something with reasonable price, at the same time i'm not compromising the quality! will mill mostly zirconia and resin, glass ceramic will be a nice option too!​

 

[DMC]

Ever consider one of these? Mine is 2x more efficient then our previous set-up.


[YOUTUBE]rLDgQg6bq7o[/YOUTUBE]

 

[paulg100]

phew, thats a tall order there.

As a small lab (whats small in the US?) i think you may struggle to find something that mills Zirconia AND Glass with good accuracy, for a price that you can get a reasonable ROI on.

"i hate to outsource anything, cause i hate to delay my clients in case anything goes wrong with the milling center"
Yeah it is nice to have that extra control, but it sure does come at a price.

Has any looked or got prices on the Origin systems?

ORIGIN CAD/CAM

This looks promising and seems to be one of the few systems that does both dry and wet milling which i think is whats needed. I dont think its ideal to wet mill zirconia. Also seem to have a number of different models to suit cost/output requirements. No lithium disilicate yet though.

*** ?

The Kavo Everest system has been around a long while now but does zirconia and glass and metal. We looked at this before buying our Cercon mill several years ago. Its always had a pretty good rep. What turned us off was they way you have to manually fill the internal of copings with a resin before milling the external. The upshot of this though is you can mill very accurate knife edge margins with less chipping problems. They have now opened this up to 3shape so it has a bang up to date software/scanner solution to go with it now.
In hind sight we should have gone with this rather than cercon i think.

Also have you checked dental products report?
DentalProductsReport.com - CAD/CAM Connection

http://dental.advanstar.com/charts/ccc/dlp0709_tt-Charts-Complete-Closed.pdf

They have some nice comparison charts on there that summarise most of the current systems, their cost and there facilities.

 

[rabia]

phew, thats a tall order there.

As a small lab (whats small in the US?) i think you may struggle to find something that mills Zirconia AND Glass with good accuracy, for a price that you can get a reasonable ROI on.

"i hate to outsource anything, cause i hate to delay my clients in case anything goes wrong with the milling center"
Yeah it is nice to have that extra control, but it sure does come at a price.

Has any looked or got prices on the Origin systems?

ORIGIN CAD/CAM

This looks promising and seems to be one of the few systems that does both dry and wet milling which i think is whats needed. I dont think its ideal to wet mill zirconia. Also seem to have a number of different models to suit cost/output requirements.

*** ?

Do you know how much is the ORIGIN Pro 3000 or 4000 ??
i don't need to mill any metal for sure

 

[paulg100]

no havnt seen any price info on it.

Im guessing it wont be cheap though ;(

milling metal is still a bit of a problem for the cheaper mills i think. Know someone who outsources with the wieland mill, and they dont offer metal on it as milling this causes alot of wear on the mill apparantly. so yeah i wouldnt worry about metal either.

 

[DMC]

Service agreements! $$ Extra material on stock. $$

All machines break. (panic time) Big learning curve. How many practice teeth you will make doing trial and errror.

Takes up plenty of space. Time to re-doo half/all the lab or build a new one.

Look at the price of equip. Ad 50%! That's what your loan/bank accnt should have IMO.

 

[DMC]

Oh, I would not attempt to mill metal or eMax without an Ultra-sonic transducer in the spindle. (Roeders, DMG, and Mikron have this technology)


The tool life and speed of milling will then get you into the profit zone.
Otherwise, it would work for you, but you'll loose money on milling tools and you may be waiting longer than you want for a tooth.


My next mill will be around 14,000lbs and need a 14ft ceiling. The work area is only as big as a human skull. (DMG Ultra 20) Then they just made a little baby DMG Ulta 10. Half-million give or take.

 

[paulg100]

yep agree with *** on all of that.

Theres alot more cost to operating your own mill than just the initial outlay.

once you start factoring all of that into running your own mill, the roi just gets longer and longer. This is why i would not reccomend a "small" lab getting into there own milling.

I didnt take my own advise, and i dont think we will ever see an roi on our kit!

MABEY our first cercon mill has just about paid for its self but thats after 7-8 years. Any business guru will tell you this is not an acceptable roi, espcially when that money could have been used in other areas to generate more business, marketting etc.

"Oh, I would not attempt to mill metal or eMax without an Ultra-sonic transducer in the spindle. (Roeders, DMG, and Mikron have this technology)"

whats that do ***?

 

[rabia]

thank you for the feedback! do you have any info about Amann Girbach new cad-cam system? their milling machine is not very expensive, their marginal gap is around 20 micron and they included the CR in the new software! but i didn't see their zirconia yet. correct me if i am wrong ​

 

[paulg100]

had a quick look on the amann website re this system.

Looks interesting but the initial things i noted and would ask questions on:

1 - it looks like you can only mill from their own software, although it does support import of model data. Not ideal

2 - how many axis is the scanner?. the fact that you have to remove and seat dies to clear a path for the scanner does not look great. This means that you are lifting off and re-seating dies to scan bridge work and if the dies are not correctly seated your bridge aint gonna fit. This is how the cercon eye scanner works and its pants. Cheap but pants.

scanning from a solid cast is the way to go for accurate bridge frames. can the 3shape scanner do this?

3. the digital articulation is great IF it works. This means in theory you could finally do accurate multi unit designs in the CAD without having to wax first and copy scan.

4. How are the fits in the real world? they quote 20 microns but is it REALLY 20 microns. dont beleive the specs until youve seen it. a x20 mag will allow you to see around 10 microns, so that would be the easiest way to check this on a few units.

How much was the milling unit?

Also the mill only handles zirconia and resin, how long would your roi be with just these materials?

 

[charles007]

Do you know how much is the ORIGIN Pro 3000 or 4000 ??
i don't need to mill any metal for sure

The Origin 4000, is aprox 118k with a 3shape scanner. I waiting to get an exact price this week......Its 13k or 14k extra to mill metal-NP&Tit..... Its a wet/dry that WILL mill emax, ceramics and dry mill zirconia. I believe it take 25 minutes to mill emax. I've talked with a lab tech that bought this model earlier this year and he loves it...... hardly has to touch the margins.
Going to his milling lab the first chance I can leave my swamped lab.
Check out Saylors Dental Laboratory, Inc. check out Jeff's blog on milling emax with his larger Origin...............he also has the inlab which he doesn't like, and now trying to sell.

Look for these dates on Jeff's blog.
Feb 25 Origin emax cad
Feb 9 Adjusting Zir
Jan 10 Origin Milling-Zir works

 

[paulg100]

Thats a real good price for a wet/dry mill including the scanner, i was expecting 150k +.

If the fits are as good as suggested, i think this is a system i would look into real good if i was in the market for a new mill.

the extra indications the wet function allows, mean you should be able to realize a quicker return than having just a dry mill.

 

[DMC]

No offense, but Jeff probably loves everything he just bought. (Hi Jeff!, Scott)

Give it time. They are still learning with the new mill. It's too soon to even calculate what it's costing/making them IMO.

I was trying to get Jeff to take on my little Brother's work. He's a Dentist that won't listen to his older brother who has seen 1000x more teeth than he. I'll let Jeff or someone else give it whack.

 

[Slipstream]

on the topic of the 3 shape scanner, could anyone tell me how hands on the scanning process?

Our current scanning solution (sirona ineos) is to manual and time consuming for my liking, and i hope to upgrade to a proper desktop solution at some time in the not to distant future?

Is it just a case of pop the model in, press start and walk away until its finished?

For a single coping, you scan the whole arch / partial cast.
Identify from the low res scan the area of interest -usually adjoining teeth and rescan at high res.
Then insert the section on its own for a 360 scan in high res, software then stitches the scans together to for a complete image to build on.
1 additional scan of antagonist arch on it's own and 1 in position for bite if required.

OR - 1 double sided scan from a triple tray gives you the full work area ready to go.

From scan you move to design

Margins are calculated for you then displayed for correction / adjustment, either a shell / coping which is the work of seconds, or a full anatomical to mill or cut back which takes a few mins to sculpt from the template design.

Quite a few good videos on 3Shapes website and youtube if you want a look

Colin

 

[paulg100]

Thanks for the info colin.

So how long for a full hi res arch?

Also if i work on a full res arch with full opposing and a correlate image to eg duplicate a wax up, can the software handle this or does it chug like hell? like the sirona software.

Larger arch scans are gonna be pretty mandatory i guess, if the upcomming articulation function is gonna be effective.

 

[Slipstream]

Thanks for the info colin.

So how long for a full hi res arch?

Also if i work on a full res arch with full opposing and a correlate image to eg duplicate a wax up, can the software handle this or does it chug like hell? like the sirona software.

Larger arch scans are gonna be pretty mandatory i guess, if the upcomming articulation function is gonna be effective.

Sorry Paul, missed your question completely. If you have both arches in detail scan, it seems no slower than working with a single coping.

In fairness the PC we supply with the system is a 2.0Gz Dual core with a fairly capable graphic card, on a laptop it does slow but not that badly.

The 3Shape software allows you to scan a waxup and it overlays it as a ghost image (you have slider control as to how dense the image is),you can also import the patients scan pre treatment and use them as a reference.

Full arch I just scanned took 75 seconds including the low res positioning scan, the 2010 software update will apparently shave some time off that.

If you want to come visit the lab and play with a system, let me know.

Colin

 

[paulg100]

Ok thanks for your help.

A 2ghz dual core is ancient now so if it runs well on that then its safe to say that the coding on the inlab software is just dire.

its nothing to do with the data point detail as weve already seen how much more masively detailed the other systems are.

Even a watercooled highly overclocked quad cant handle the type of case as ive described above without chugging!

Ill start saving for a 3shape then

BTW came up to your lab just after you got your very first Lava unit,good few years back now, me dad used to be chairman of TEREC uk

 

[karabear]

For a single coping, you scan the whole arch / partial cast.
Identify from the low res scan the area of interest -usually adjoining teeth and rescan at high res.

Colin

I did a test of the difference in the data capture with the high resolution vs. the low resolution on the 3Shape scanner. It was embarrassing, the difference was so minute. I also compared the time difference between scanning at high vs. low resolution: the same. . {scratching head}