Copings from ARGEN

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SLM . DPM
Since we use ARGEN copings
We have bubble and bonding problem.
Don't you guys have problem?
We use vm13 porcelain.
What kind of porcelain you use?
 
Baobabtree

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SLM . DPM
Since we use ARGEN copings
We have bubble and bonding problem.
Don't you guys have problem?
We use vm13 porcelain.
What kind of porcelain you use?
Are you using a bonder like ceram bond? If not I would suggest you give it a try, works with any alloy.
https://www.bredent.co.uk/products/latest-offers/offers-ceram-bond-ckb/

BR52000323-500x500.JPG
 
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Thanks.
I will try everything
 
millennium

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Argen owns Vision, so they sell this. Sorry for the upside down pic
 

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Is it bonder for PFM ?
Thanks
 
millennium

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Yes it is for pfm. Sandblast your metal, steam clean apply a thin layer of bonder and vibrate alittle . Fire with full vac at 1800 F high temp. Then apply first and second opaques respectively.
 
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Thnka you so much.
I will try that.
What kind of porcelain you use?
I use VM13 porcelain.
I'm thinking that i.m getting bubbles
because VM13 porcelain body baking temperature(890) is too hight
 
Baobabtree

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Thnka you so much.
I will try that.
What kind of porcelain you use?
I use VM13 porcelain.
I'm thinking that i.m getting bubbles
because VM13 porcelain body baking temperature(890) is too hight
It isn't your porcelain, I've been using a bonder for 10 yrs, had similar problems when switched to having copings done by milling. Never had a problem since I started using a bonder.
 
millennium

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When you pop the bubble can you see metal? If yes, its not your porcelain. It cold only be a super tiny hole through the opaque that you can barely see.
 
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Yes i can see metal.
I apply opacque with microscop
to avoid tiny hole but i'm still get bubble.
 
Contraluz

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Yes i can see metal.
I apply opacque with microscop
to avoid tiny hole but i'm still get bubble.
The tiny hole is coming up from the metal, probably due to contamination or trapped air in the frame. Almost certainly not not due to your application of the opaquer (you still need to apply the opaque carefully, though). You may want to revise your metal finishing (burs, stones etc...)
 
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We called ARGEN few times.
They said same thing what you said.
We try to do whatever Argen said.
Still have same problem.
I.m just wondering Argen have problem ???
I know Argen not gonna say
ARGEN have problem.
 
millennium

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You already tried their bonder?
 
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We tried bego bonder.
More.problem .....
Didnot work but
i will get bonder that you recommended.
 
JMN

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We tried bego bonder.
More.problem .....
Didnot work but
i will get bonder that you recommended.
How are you handling the metal between sandblasting and opaquing? Gloves at all times? Kept covered in distilled water and using forceps/tweezers? Are they left uncovered on the bench in the heat/airconditioner vent path overnight(edit: so stuff could fall on them)?

Not trying to blame you, but want to make sure that it is not a bunch of things together make the problem.
 
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millennium

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I don't think its the bonder than. Nothing wrong with Begos bonder. Probably the technique is off. listen to JMN!
 
Baobabtree

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Are you trying to get your opaque layer done in one bake ie applying it thicker? I do bonder and bake, 1st layer of opaque applied thinly and baked, if it takes 2 sometimes 3 bakes so be it, but it works for me.If I apply it too thickly the opaque layer doesn't look great and i'll strip it and start over. I use argen slm all the time, but I'm doing less and less pfm now and doing more zirconia and emax/lisi. For pfm I am using VM13 for 3D shades and GC MC for classical.
 
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SLM . DPM
Since we use ARGEN copings
We have bubble and bonding problem.
Don't you guys have problem?
We use vm13 porcelain.
What kind of porcelain you use?
You can try "GC" Bonding too and slow cooling for ceramic [emoji846]

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You can try "GC" Bonding too and slow cooling for ceramic [emoji846]

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I use bego metal for slm too
When finishing the metal never use the burs for other metal too. After you sandblast with a unique sandblaster(110 micron) for this use only, and after oxidation sandblasting again is a most.
Pay attention to the oxidation temperature too must be higher I think you know it
Good luck


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TheLabGuy

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STOP!!! Are you steam cleaning your copings after you sandblast? If yes, DO NOT, just throw them in some distilled water and ultrasonic for 5 mins instead of steam cleaning after you sandblast. I know, it sounds silly, but try it...the problem is that the heating elements in the steamers are coated with a teflon material (which is great, makes them last a very long time) however, it contaminates the steam. This little bit of tidbit of info cost me over 25K and almost my sanity to figure out. Was getting bubbles (usually during glaze cycle),always coming from metal, changed crucibles, gasses, oxygen, different alloys, you name it....then Ernie from Ivoclar said they just threw all their steamers out the door, they found the same problem. Hope this helps and if not, maybe someone else.
 

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