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FASTFNGR

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So I decide that I should buy a digital denture printer, start to study the dply system, have an open mind... I get to the end of the video and wonder how I can offer that and get away with it, I guess it would be good for a temporary or medicaid denture. I'll look at Ivoclar now and see what they have.
With Ivoclar machines to mill it will take you the rest of your life to get your money back. The printed denture quality is not there yet. It might be convenient but why? There are other ways to do denture fast and quick with no CAD of computer. I am not sure what is the big deal about it? There is a patented product called DENTURECLONE that gets a denture done in 2 visits with any lab or in one visit with an in-house lab. Very inexpensive. Visit dentureclone.com.
 
JKraver

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dentureclone.com.
Didn't this have another name a few years ago? You put it in hot water, form it to the model then reline it into the mouth? I wasn't willing to poke around too much on their website. Their "best' photos for their website doesn't give me hope for a good product. There is a niche for this product for sure, poor, medicare, nearly dead, ect.
 
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Didn't this have another name a few years ago? You put it in hot water, form it to the model then reline it into the mouth? I wasn't willing to poke around too much on their website. Their "best' photos for their website doesn't give me hope for a good product. There is a niche for this product for sure, poor, medicare, nearly dead, ect.
No, this product is a wax based that you treat it like your wax try in. Has no palate and not a thermoplastic material. This was done just to shorten the standard procedure for a dentures into 2 visits with a standard wax and any type of economy or premium teeth. The curing is done using standard process or microwave process. You have noticed I repeated STANDARD because the main reason everyone is pushing digital denture is because there is not enough denture technicians qualified left. With this all some one has to do is to fill in the rest with wax and process. You can use HK, Vita or Ivoclar teeth or even Ceramic teeth. “Bench mark” denture are Thermoplastic that is hard to work with since first has a palate, then the material does not bond to acrylic reline. It was cheap and used for the purpose you mentioned; Medicare or temp denture. Denture clone is a complete Patented product that has been in the market for only 1 year. Watch the video till the end where it shows how a lab will process with normal procedure.
 
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No, this product is a wax based that you treat it like your wax try in. Has no palate and not a thermoplastic material. This was done just to shorten the standard procedure for a dentures into 2 visits with a standard wax and any type of economy or premium teeth. The curing is done using standard process or microwave process. You have noticed I repeated STANDARD because the main reason everyone is pushing digital denture is because there is not enough denture technicians qualified left. With this all some one has to do is to fill in the rest with wax and process. You can use HK, Vita or Ivoclar teeth or even Ceramic teeth. “Bench mark” denture are Thermoplastic that is hard to work with since first has a palate, then the material does not bond to acrylic reline. It was cheap and used for the purpose you mentioned; Medicare or temp denture. Denture clone is a complete Patented product that has been in the market for only 1 year. Watch the video till the end where it shows how a lab will process with normal procedure.
If the tight assed insurance companies would PAY for quality dentures the techs will return... and there will be more good techs in only 10-12 years lol. The dentists and denture techs screwed themselves by not commanding or paying for skilled service. Now they think a laptop's gonna fix it. Good luck with that.
 
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If the tight assed insurance companies would PAY for quality dentures the techs will return... and there will be more good techs in only 10-12 years lol. The dentists and denture techs screwed themselves by not commanding or paying for skilled service. Now they think a laptop's gonna fix it. Good luck with that.
A laptop absolutely will be the solution to the problem. Unfortunately it will not be great fits all solution. I would almost say that a fully digital upper/lower set with milled quality PMMA Teeth and bonded base. Is better in function than what most even good denture techs can produce. It will/may not be more aesthetic, than high quality card teeth. Most dentures have budget teeth in them anyway.
 
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Most dentures have softliner in them anyway.
 
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Only until I can get a clean scan of the basal surface. Then after it's milled the patient comments on how it's the best fitting denture they have ever had. Decades long denture patients.
 
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printing is for try ins and temp bridges only they just dont look that good milling withe ivoclar system is slow and expensive and still doesnt look that good the teeth part is one colour and trans.
 
Jack_the_dentureman

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if only I got a good functional impression, then after giving the finished denture the patient comments "oh I did not expect how comfortable this denture is, I do not feel bad at all, and in addition they look so natural ... oh thank you".

PS Im big fan of CAD CAM and 3D printers.
But only think i do conventionally are full dentures.
I don't like the way where, they tell doctors that they have nothing to do, and technology will do it for them. The truth is that we take on their responsibilities, not the technology.
 
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if only I got a good functional impression, then after giving the finished denture the patient comments "oh I did not expect how comfortable this denture is, I do not feel bad at all, and in addition they look so natural ... oh thank you".

PS Im big fan of CAD CAM and 3D printers.
But only think i do conventionally are full dentures.
I don't like the way where, they tell doctors that they have nothing to do, and technology will do it for them. The truth is that we take on their responsibilities, not the technology.
I will not argue with you Jack. The computers make some things easy, but it is the operator and their knowledge that makes everything work better... or worse.
I am certainly not a denture technician, but computers allow me to use the knowledge I have about occlusion and things like CAD CAM. This allow me to skip all the hard hours of learning through trial and error and good old experience. I can print prototypes to check occlusion and aesthetics and I don't have to start all over to make changes via analog wax ups.
 
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A laptop absolutely will be the solution to the problem. Unfortunately it will not be great fits all solution. I would almost say that a fully digital upper/lower set with milled quality PMMA Teeth and bonded base. Is better in function than what most even good denture techs can produce. It will/may not be more aesthetic, than high quality card teeth. Most dentures have budget teeth in them anyway.
We may be in two different price point/ customer expectations.... I'm an IPN-Portrait player along with my accounts. I am a firm believer that if the patient likes it they will learn to use it. No silver bullet for laptop or old school...
 
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A laptop absolutely will be the solution to the problem. Unfortunately it will not be great fits all solution. I would almost say that a fully digital upper/lower set with milled quality PMMA Teeth and bonded base. Is better in function than what most even good denture techs can produce. It will/may not be more aesthetic, than high quality card teeth. Most dentures have budget teeth in them anyway.
If I have to spend $50.000 minimum on a heavy duty milling machine and spend 2 to 3 hours to mill a denture that is as good quality as a standard denture I am not sure where is the smart investment here. A puck of pink acrylic Is about $100 and another $50 for teeth and you are lucky If you can get 2 arches of dentures and the price will not be more than a standard denture. The ROI will be in years and not months.
 
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I will not argue with you Jack. The computers make some things easy, but it is the operator and their knowledge that makes everything work better... or worse.
I am certainly not a denture technician, but computers allow me to use the knowledge I have about occlusion and things like CAD CAM. This allow me to skip all the hard hours of learning through trial and error and good old experience. I can print prototypes to check occlusion and aesthetics and I don't have to start all over to make changes via analog wax ups.
How much is your printer and how much for your resin and how much it will cost you to learn? I know what the answer will be but those companies who want to sell you a 3D printer or a milling machine worth $$$$, they do not care whether you get your money this year or in 10years. Plus remember all these equipment need parts and tech support. When your machine goes down good luck printing or milling that denture that is due tomorrow or even today. I still think digital denture is not ready yet. It needs a lot of tweaking and the quality is not there. I can teach someone how to do a quality denture in one week with minimum adjustment if someone have the UNDERSTANDING of how to. Not everyone can be a removable tech. Much easier for Ceramics.
 
2thm8kr

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How much is your printer and how much for your resin and how much it will cost you to learn? I know what the answer will be but those companies who want to sell you a 3D printer or a milling machine worth $$$$, they do not care whether you get your money this year or in 10years. Plus remember all these equipment need parts and tech support. When your machine goes down good luck printing or milling that denture that is due tomorrow or even today. I still think digital denture is not ready yet. It needs a lot of tweaking and the quality is not there. I can teach someone how to do a quality denture in one week with minimum adjustment if someone have the UNDERSTANDING of how to. Not everyone can be a removable tech. Much easier for Ceramics.
The equipment is paid for already and used for other tasks, it has also made a lot of money and saved a lot of my time.which is worth more than money. However outsourcing is a possibility for those not wishing to invest in or participate in robot slave labor. It's just been my experience if you want to control your quality you will have to own the equipment and rely on yourself The cost to learn isn't any more expensive than anything else I want to teach myself. All my equipment has been and will be maintained by me or someone else here whether it is digital or analog. Being as self sufficient as possible, it's a rare occurrence to reach out to tech support although necessary at times.
If you don't schedule time for maintenance your equipment will schedule it for you, analog or digital.

Scheduling the workload and case planning in my lab eliminates rush cases due the next or same day. If a piece of equipment were to go down for some unforeseen reason the case would get rescheduled. If not, it wouldn't be the end of the world. Right now dentures are not a priority so they are something on the side to experiment with. I already do a fair amount of full arch/mouth cases and every single one of them has a DX done digitally, but analog in another time. They are all reverse engineered based on function.
I know its hard to believe that someone with a background in crown and bridge may have an UNDERSTANDING of occlusion and function, but arranging preformed teeth in proper patient specific occlusal scheme is not rocket science reserved for only the brightest.
Doing it digitally is faster and easier, no grinding and once the prototype is dialed in can be replicated over and over like printing a piece of paper. At which point it could become a denture or a hybrid implant case without starting from square one with all the labor involved. Duplication of the design without most of the analog processing errors caused by material science.
You may not think digital dentures are there yet and they may not be in some regard, but they are right around the corner and your side of the business is going to be over run by digital. Whether you want to accept that or not it's the reality of a labor intense business who's tech's are retiring or dying faster than you are teaching the replacements. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other if denture tech's believe in digital anything. If my client's have a need that's not being met and I am able, i will take that opportunity. The younger generation are already accepting digital as the way rather than the future and the next graduates even more so. Soon we will both be gone and any memory of the old analog ways will be too. The world will keep turning and things will exponentially change like they have from the beginning.
 
Affinity

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Elon musk thinks our bicycles are cute and quaint too as he views us from his satelites. The people with big ideas and big money aren't concerned about ROI just success.
The world has changed but there's still room for both.. for now..
 
Jack_the_dentureman

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but it's not about modernity or technology. it's about reliability, economy, convenience, and most importantly the final result. in many places digital dentistry is extremely good and conventional methods are unprofitable, despite the high prices of scanners and milling machines. crowns and bridges. but if you want to print on tryin of your dentures and no one is infallible and your dentist will want to reposition several teeth, for aesthetics or function. if you want to change something on the printed denture, then you need another visit. bad economics for the dentist. If you have wax, the dentist do correction in 5 mins.
there are many other details that decide why, for now, wax tryins will be with us for a long time

Elon musk thinks our bicycles are cute and quaint too as he views us from his satelites. The people with big ideas and big money aren't concerned about ROI just success.
The world has changed but there's still room for both.. for now..

Yes. we still use knives in the kitchen instead of laser cutting. anyway milling machines are no new technology and future than lasers and ceramics.
comment_OaqtORx89a1XnNArKo83M3PreBEjlmRQ.gif
Back to the main thread. it will be difficult for expensive equipment to pay for immediate and temporary work, which is assumed to be cheap.
in addition, it seems that such work does not go faster or lighter.
 
2thm8kr

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Expensive equipment is not paid for by temporary and immediate work. It is paid for by the every day cases and labor/time savings. Which in turn make temporary and immediate work easier and quicker in skilled hands, just as many of you are in traditional methods. It's a tool for a tasks, not a one tool solves every problem. Your work bench doesn't have only one or tool rotary tools just like your tool box doesn't just a hammer and Phillip's screw driver.

Out of curiosity, how long does it take (or what is expected from) a skilled tech to make an above average or better denture from casts and Rx to final not including boil out and curing?
 
JKraver

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Expensive equipment is not paid for by temporary and immediate work. It is paid for by the every day cases and labor/time savings. Which in turn make temporary and immediate work easier and quicker in skilled hands, just as many of you are in traditional methods. It's a tool for a tasks, not a one tool solves every problem. Your work bench doesn't have only one or tool rotary tools just like your tool box doesn't just a hammer and Phillip's screw driver.

Out of curiosity, how long does it take (or what is expected from) a skilled tech to make an above average or better denture from casts and Rx to final not including boil out and curing?
I expect about an hour per arch between set up, balancing, and festooning to finish. Most of the time it is about 45 min.
Investing, boiling out and processing takes be between 2-4 hours depending if I use the slow cheaper stone or the faster expensive stuff.
Finishing is maybe 20-30 min.
 
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Jack_the_dentureman

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for me, articulation and ANALYSIS OF MODELS, setting and modeling of a complete denture take about 3 to 4 hours. replacing with acrylic is about an hour, aesthetics with composite, paints and varnishing is also another hour. so I close myself in 6 hours for a set of dentures. However, I'm lazy I break it up for two days and it turns into 8h.
 

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