A few questions on gc vs vita

[desertfox384]

im currently using inline and thinking about at least trying another porcelain. I like the idea of using vita because of the 3d shades and large assortment of powders - I like inline but it's a little sparse on variety of powders.. I'm using noritake for 3d shades -it's an ok porcelain but shades do lack chroma often. So I'd like some opinions on master and vm13 - what's the difference between the two? My other question is on gc initial- Im really wanting to try it- they have a mixing chart to make 3d shades, how well does it work? I'd really like to simplify the porcelains down to one system and get rid of inline and noritake.

 

[JohnWilson]

I am a long time Vita user for everything, however, we just bought a Full Kit of GC for Zi.

What made me want to do the switch is the videos I have seen on the net with very little glass being added and the great effects that are to be had doing micro layering.

 

[Gru]

I too am an inLine user. I have a had a mostly unused vm13 master kit around a while. To me it handles a lot like dsign, and not being a master ceramist, I struggled with handling it. If you were to go the vita direction, I'd be happy to sell it to you cheap. I just don't have the patience/skill to work with it.

 

[charles007]

im currently using inline and thinking about at least trying another porcelain. I like the idea of using vita because of the 3d shades and large assortment of powders - I like inline but it's a little sparse on variety of powders.. I'm using noritake for 3d shades -it's an ok porcelain but shades do lack chroma often. So I'd like some opinions on master and vm13 - what's the difference between the two? My other question is on gc initial- Im really wanting to try it- they have a mixing chart to make 3d shades, how well does it work? I'd really like to simplify the porcelains down to one system and get rid of inline and noritake.

Matt, I'm a long time user of EX3 & Vita porcelain and would swear Vita made some of the best porcelains on the market until they came out with vm13, and Master. I would consider Master a slightly improved user friendlier porcelain, but still sucks to many ? GC MC & Creation have a lot of chroma like Dsign but more user friendly, and I haven't tried EX3 Value shades yet. Shofu is worth trying but some techs can't seem to get good shades and no 3D shades. I've used Shofu MC for the last 2 years and haven't had any problems, and looks so much better than EX3.
On zirconia porcelains, my opinions are all over the place. I can't get good 3d shades with VM9 to safe my life and its probably because of zirconia core shades and me ? Value is off and lack of chroma is what I can't correct. Still using GC ZI with beautiful results but trying to get 3d shades with their chart doesn't work, its hit and miss for me. Several months ago I ordered Noritake CZR and wow, 3d shades are great if you carefully check shade after firing Shade Base Stain. Thicker layer of Shade Base Stain equals higher chroma, you may need to fire to layers.
The problem I have is getting a lot of light 3D shades like 0.5M1, 1M1, 1M1.5 interpolated shades, 1M2,,1.5m2, 2m1 . Shades like these are impossible for me to achieve using conversion chart. So far CZR has worked beautifully but I haven't tried micro layering using CZR.
Micro layering porcelain like John was talking about and what I plan to incorporate is very simple using GC Zi with it's high chroma. Still using GC Zi on classical shades since I haven't ordered the CZR classical kit yet. Wanted to make sure I'm sold on CZR first.
If I didn't get 3d shades, I would use Shofu Zr ...lol
Matt, if you start using VM9 and like it, give me a call. I will give you the rest of my vm9 porcelain. I have all the classical shades and only the lighter half of the 3d shades.

 

[desertfox384]

Thanks a lot everyone. Charles and gru thank you for the offers. I dont do a lot of pfz Charles, My docs all want eMax. I definitely don't want to get Involved with vita if it will just be a headache... Consolidating to one system would be nice but not worth a hassle. I have a good friend who uses vm13 and really likes it ??? maybe I just need to bug vita and gc for a trial kit and test drive them.
I'm getting Into micro layering now which is why I feel I've outgrown inline.. So vita master is vm13 with better handling basically?

 

[charles007]

I tried Inline years ago at the time I was using Dsign for 2 years and thought Inline was a poor substitute, but that's just me.
VM13 and Master is a 1 trick pony, you must keep it wet and fire it wet. Once you get over that learning curve your fine. Vita 900, vm13 and Master porcelain matches very well on 3D shades...
If you've tried Dsign and loved the porcelain and the way it stacked, and liked Creation also, you will find GC MC very similar but without the technique problems associated with both Dsign and Creation. I still think Dsign is the prettiest porcelain on the market, but I got tired of adding porcelain at the margin where it lifted a fraction in 1 spot on opaque, and adding porcelain to interproximal on bridges. Maybe Rob's dry powder technique is a better technique using Dsign porcelain but I don't like emax ceram on zirconia at all.
There's rumors a new porcelain may come out for LD
Why not try GC if you lost the Love for EX3 and InLine , but that doesn't solve your 3D shade problem. lol

 

[rkm rdt]

You guys seem to switch porcelains a lot.

 

[martintay]

I uses "Master" for a couple of years because of 3D ! The dentine is highly chromatic and opaque so good shades as a result ! IMO the most user "Unfriendly" ceramic too build that I`ve ever come across . I found I had to "up" the temp to get translucency ! Again its only my opinion but I found VM 13 greyish but easier to build . Basically I don`t like either of them.

 

[martintay]

Vita should never had discontinued Omega 900 !

 

[charles007]

Vita should never had discontinued Omega 900 !

Couldn't agree more, but I will add I liked regular Omega much better than Omega 900. Vita should have just added the 3d shades to Omega rather than come out with a new Omega 900. I loved Omega rich opacious dentins which Ivoclar sort of copied years later in their Dsign Deep Dentins.

 

[martintay]

Original "Omega" was great ! You must be as old as me lol.

 

[desertfox384]

I hadn't considered dsign because Ive heard a rumor its being discontinued.. Maybe it's just a Rumor.

 

[bettsy]

I hadn't considered dsign because Ive heard a rumor its being discontinued.. Maybe it's just a Rumor.

It is just a rumour, there was talk a few years ago about Classic but they decided to keep it because its still used a lot.

 

[Tad Philip]

EX3 values shade are very good. EX3 dentin is very trans., makes sure to use Opacious dentin with it. "n" series for classical shades. CZR is the best PFZ on the market. And I have used just about every PFZ material on the Market, Emax Ceram sucks on Zr frames. Also the technician is a big factor in this too. But for 3D shades, reliability and production CZR is awesome. Also CZR pressed LT with build up on Zr Bridge frame is nice. Also done some select cases in CZR HT single anteriors & veneers pretty material. I have used GC MC & FS ZR. Yes, modifiers are very good. Very opacious material, love CL F. I add 1/10 ratio of CF L to dentin to help it pop. To much interpoximal tearing for me. John can you a link on micro layering GC?? Thanks Tad
PS.. Charles how are you? Miss talking to you

 

[Affinity]

Ive used GC initial for about 10 years now.. If you want chroma, youve got to build a shade darker cervically OR use the INside powders. Its a must, unless you just want to stain the cervical.. Initial looks great whether 3 powders or 8.. but the INside is really what sets it apart for Zr. You need chroma and flourescence for zr, and GC has it. Cant speak for any other porcelains, the 2 other labs ive done piece work for in the last 10 years also used initial.. going back before that I had a vita omega 900 kit.. that stuff shrank like crazy and was hard as a rock!! but looked beautiful

 

[Edy]

Can someone explain to me what micro layering is ?

 

[desertfox384]

I found out who my local rep is for GC and gave her a call (imagine that, I have a rep! Ivoclar took mine away) I asked her if there is a trial kit I can use/buy and she said nope, she would just drive to my lab and deliver the entire PFM kit for me to use for the next few weeks. She showed up a couple days later with the 3 MC boxes and we went over the system.
Color me impressed, does customer service still exist if you aren't a mega lab? I guess so!

 

[Tad Philip]

Customer Reps!! LOL. I bought a Wieland Mini from Chris W. from Ivoclar 16 months ago. He was my best friend calling me everyday. Told me, welcome to the Ivoclar family, your in our family now Tad, we got your back. LOL, 2 weeks after I received the mill, I haven't heard from him once! 16 months. Now thats a Customer Rep! So when it came to buying a new D800 scanner, my best friend was last on my list. I went with Core3D, Mark, Sarah & Hyrum have been AWESOME! WPT & Ivoclar's service techs have been very good. Sirona's service tech, sounded like he was completely stoned when talking to him on a minor issue, he keep repeating himself and called me dude all the time. worst phone call ever!!

 

[dmonwaxa]

Can someone explain to me what micro layering is ?

< 0.5mm layering of ceramic materials on the surface.

 

[TheLabGuy]

I found out who my local rep is for GC and gave her a call (imagine that, I have a rep! Ivoclar took mine away) I asked her if there is a trial kit I can use/buy and she said nope, she would just drive to my lab and deliver the entire PFM kit for me to use for the next few weeks. She showed up a couple days later with the 3 MC boxes and we went over the system.
Color me impressed, does customer service still exist if you aren't a mega lab? I guess so!

That's BS!!! I've been trying to find my GC rep for three years now and get a trial kit. Please, PLEASE share with me your results and by chance give her my address, phone number, heck give her my SSN, hell give her one of my kids... throw in her in a car and tell her to head to Michigan Seriously, just let her know I'm looking to try GC's porcelain out as well. Now I will scurry away in dismay and total jealously...lol