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    Ivoclar bought Sagemax

    Discussion in 'SageMax' started by John C, Sep 25, 2017.

    1. Affinity
      Question

      Affinity Well-Known Member Full Member

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      If our government did anything to make business fair or interesting in this country, then anti-trust should be investigating our industry.. Not that I think thats the solution, but we have no control over it. Dental is growing, however dental labs are not, so the giants are able to squeeze us out of the pie? Were the ones who built their businesses for decades.
       
      Last edited: Sep 27, 2017
      • Agree Agree x 2
    2. Ken Knapp
      Inspired

      Ken Knapp Active Member Full Member

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      I like the natural order of things to prevail in a free market.

      "Laissez faire"

      Ken
       
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    3. vurban210
      No Mood

      vurban210 Active Member Full Member

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      When the government picks and chooses winners/losers it is far from a free market. Special interest groups, lobbyists and their ilk have made sure that our economy is anything but a free market.

      Crony capitalism
       
      • Agree Agree x 3
    4. eyeloveteeth
      Innocent

      eyeloveteeth Well-Known Member Donator Full Member

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      you guys know more than anyone else, dental lab technician went from a skilled category to unskilled labor. My dog groomer has to have a license but Mr. Smith can make an All on X IZIR bridge with SPA and not need anything.

      On the flip side, i don't see Ivoclar's acquisition as a bad thing. the real question is do you want to fight against the flow or learn to benefit from it.

      Our industry has evolved or devolved so much, i would very much rather have ivoclar make a mill from scratch than partner with a shoddy partner and make so so mills....that sometimes work. On top of that, when did we need to become so entangled in the micro details? (maybe when we started getting micro fractuers haha) - let's focus on our product, and now a good product can be included in the ivoclar family.

      I may not be from the last generation of techs like some of you, but i don't recall ever hearing stories nit picking the shape of your high precious metal or questioning platinum foil (yes pricing, but if you found what worked for you, you generally stayed with it, right?)

      There is plenty i'm not happy with Ivoclar about, but if we want to talk direction, I can see more of it from them than any other reseller/company in our field.

      i will say this, if you built your lab around the single unit posterior, there has been long enough time to see what's coming, and being upset at the PM1 isn't going to do anything about it. The very same VHF mill many of you guys covet MOSTLY had chairside options on display at IDS. Now is the time to further your self, and invest in learning how to deal with complex cases, focus on your marketing and position yourself above those mass production labs that spit out 500 single unit posteriors a day.

      i only have to make 1 posterior unit to make up for 2-3 avg production lab units. Meaning my QC isn't bludgeoned with so many cases that there is a high risk of something being missed. Spending time to have that relationship with your accounts and knowing they can count on you is what will build this up.

      When was the last time anyone got excited about a large practice or a hospital account? What's the point? see how far you can drive your prices into the ground because they are promising "X"? - and then they don't deliver "X" amount and also demand net 180 days payment....

      We're proactively looking for different solutions and different business models to fit the coming future. I know plenty of you are doing so too, i just implore you guys to not get so cynical and band together to figure out how to game the system for ours/your benefit
       
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    5. Affinity
      Question

      Affinity Well-Known Member Full Member

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      I understand letting the market operate under its own free will, but its been proven that it is not economically sustainable. If a smaller startup has a great idea or product, and the larger competition sees them as a threat and decides to crush them, how is that good for the market? How does it help innovation?
      Ivoclars claim to fame was a product patent they bought from another company, hell its taken them over a decade to come out with a glaze that doesnt require 2-3 firings on their own product.

      What their doing here isnt new.
       
    6. Affinity
      Question

      Affinity Well-Known Member Full Member

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      eyeloveteeth, with the way things are consolidating, large practice or hospital accounts will be all there is to get excited about. The larger the company, the more influence and market share they have to control pricing. These companies already give the discounts to the large customers, so there is an advantage to being larger. Whos to say they wont put equipment or product into the hands of the dentists cheaper than we can get it. They realize they dont need us.
       
    7. grantoz
      Amused

      grantoz Well-Known Member Full Member

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      just watch ivoclar will do a new test and sagemax will be twice as a strong a zirconia miracle !
       
      • Funny Funny x 2
    8. eyeloveteeth
      Innocent

      eyeloveteeth Well-Known Member Donator Full Member

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      i am in high belief that high end cosmetic cases will not be done in the office. They will try, and they will fail. Im a huge fan of NVDL - they exude this mentality very well.
       
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    9. Affinity
      Question

      Affinity Well-Known Member Full Member

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      When a printer can replicate a scanned shade, then they will be done in office. 10 years tops. Thats like saying cerec Drs have tried and failed, they havent failed, they just lowered the bar to get over it. While I agree with you, my biggest esthetic account have a cerec, the technology will eventually fill the gap, just like cerec did. The Drs are the biggest shareholders of these companies, they will direct the focus to in-office.
       
    10. MineralDente

      MineralDente New Member

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      Did you guys noticed that Sagemax have left Europe distribution to a third party company (Ardent) I don't understand that move...
       
    11. ps2thtec
      Question

      ps2thtec Well-Known Member Donator Full Member

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      Isn't Ardent a sub-company of ivo after they purchased pentron ceramics?
      IMG_0657.JPG
       
    12. eyeloveteeth
      Innocent

      eyeloveteeth Well-Known Member Donator Full Member

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      yes Ivoclar bought Ardent - but as far as i know, Ardent is a shell corp now, with the minimum 10 employee listing to stay relevant.

      EU operations will always be tightly controlled, if anything i bet however they redistribute will only increase EU marketshare of Sagemax UTML when it arrives.
       
      • Informative Informative x 1
    13. Car 54
      No Mood

      Car 54 Well-Known Member Donator Full Member

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      Like emax that went from 400mpa to 500mpa overnight, when LiSi press officially came out.
      Their reason being, "with so much long term success in the mouth, our numbers must've been off"
      Also, that they updated the numbers that now are at 1mm thick for the 500mpa rating.

      So we got re-orientated with the emax press MTs "replacing" the Value ingots, the "renaming" of the
      of the Zenostar line up to MT/T/MO (compared to the colors) to help coincide with emax,
      and now the emax Zir Cad sintering programs that would need to be updated for my S1
      which can be a little confusing if I were to use the Zenostar.

      I get that they needed to do something to be competitive since emax is losing to LiSi and Zenostar to other better,
      more trans zirconias out there. That they may as well buy out the competition they could afford to buy out,
      who does have excellent products, reputation, and also makes their own zirconia here in the
      states.They will learn from Sagemax either how to make Zenostar better, or change Sagemax
      zirconia to maybe expand the emax color and translucency line up to say "we offer it all".
      It just sounds like time to get ready for more confusion from Ivoclar.
       
      Last edited: Oct 14, 2017 at 9:58 AM
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    14. grantoz
      Amused

      grantoz Well-Known Member Full Member

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      i think trump has rubbed off on ivoclar 'these days they feel that they can say anything and we will go ok. too much fake news out there.!
       
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    15. Al.
      Yeehaw

      Al. Well-Known Member Full Member

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      I agree it appears Ivo is buying out all competition and is positioning to be the labs competition.
       
    16. Car 54
      No Mood

      Car 54 Well-Known Member Donator Full Member

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      At what point do they lose lab revenue, but do they make it up on the operatory side?
      Is it work that has to be done no matter what (crown and bridge etc), but would they, IvoDentex lose money going
      completely for the chair side, operatory side? Does it make sense for them to do that?

      edit: or is it that so many labs are closing and more to close, that they (Ivoclar etc) have to
      re-position themselves in that way?
       
      Last edited: Oct 16, 2017 at 1:42 PM
    17. Patrick Coon
      Happy

      Patrick Coon Well-Known Member Sponsors Full Member

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      Sorry, Al, we don't want to be the labs competition. If that were the case, we would be milling and completing restorations in our facility in Troy. But that is not the case. Yes we mill, but will not complete the case and will not mill for doctors (unless they have an in-house lab, and then everything still comes in an uncompleted stage). All zirconia is either sent out unsintered or bars removed (but not smoothed) and sintered. All Lithium Disilicate is sent with the bars cut (again not smoothed) and either crystallized or not. Nothing stained, nothing glazed, nothing polished. Everything in an unfinished state for the labs to customize and send to the doctor.

      Looking forward to digital dentures, we are marketing this as a laboratory driven process. We don't want to be in the business of milling for doctors. We want to sell mills to the labs and the materials to go in them. IV Troy may outsource for labs on this, but all will be sent out in an unfinished state, to laboratories for completion of the prosthesis.

      As for our acquisition of Sagemax, I'm sure that we wanted increased manufacturing facilities along with possibly some of their Intellectual Property to strengthen our product lines. And if they weren't interested in selling to someone, we wouldn't even be talking about this.
       
      • Disagree Disagree x 1

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