Zubler vs Dekema

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Gav

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Sorry folks another oven question. I was deciding which pressing oven to buy (don't have one yet) when my main porcelain oven started going on the blink.
I can't afford two separate ovens at the moment so which one (Zubler VP300E, Dekema 654 press-i-dent) would you go for if you had to use it for both crown work and pressing emax?
I'm leaning towards the Dekema for the crown work but I'm reading a lot of good stuff about Zubler for pressing.
So, which is best for BOTH?

Cheers
Gav
 
amadent

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we have zubler vario press 300 and dekema austromat 3001 ( does not press)
have had great result's pressing and doing ceramic work in the zubler ( i use everyday for both )but i feel nothing compares to dekema when it comes to the quality of the vacum- when it releases after afiring cycle you can hear it clear across the room- just my 2 cents
with that being said
i dont think you can go wrong with either oven
lets us know witch one you decide on

Greg Amendola MDT
 
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digidental

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I have been using the Dekema austromat 3001(not pressing) for over ten years now, cant fault it and i would buy another second hand one instead of a new furnace, if i had to. I have had no experience with the Dekema 654 press-i-dent.
 
CoolHandLuke

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i been using the dekema press-i-dent 3001 for pressing. its ok. we can get it to press over roundhouse if need be.
 
Zubler USA

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Gav,

Hope you don't mind the manufacturer getting involved in the discussion. I think one area you will be happy in working with us will be the support you will receive as well as the quality of the oven itself. No other oven will press e.max as fast as we can. I encourage you to email me or give me a call. [email protected].

Chris Wilson
 
CatamountRob

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Gav,

Hope you don't mind the manufacturer getting involved in the discussion. I think one area you will be happy in working with us will be the support you will receive as well as the quality of the oven itself. No other oven will press e.max as fast as we can. I encourage you to email me or give me a call. [email protected].

Chris Wilson

Chris, you can involve yourself in any discussion you like, however we already know that as a salesman, you probably think that the products and services you are selling are the best. When a question such as this is asked, what most people are looking for is opinions of those who don't have a vested interest in the product. Rob
 
Zubler USA

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Chris, you can involve yourself in any discussion you like, however we already know that as a salesman, you probably think that the products and services you are selling are the best. When a question such as this is asked, what most people are looking for is opinions of those who don't have a vested interest in the product. Rob

A vested inbterest I have, no doubt. I merely wanted to point out one of the features I think may make a difference. Some manufacturers may not be as honest about their affiliation using a non descript user name, posting what would apprear to be an opinion. I at least let you know who I am so there is no question. No fluff, just fact.

Chris
 
lcmlabforum

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I agree, it is always better when the representative disclose affiliation
at the front end and honesty always appreciated.
That said, I must wonder what's the benefit, and possible complications,
for pressing an eMax faster than another system? I think we need to
look at complete solution before determining which is better - a faster
press but on all types of patterns? One with a less ideal preparation
(like really long or thinner veneer, etc compared with coping with heavy
chamfer, etc)?
LCM
 
CatamountRob

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There ya go Chris,
A question that it would be entirely appropriate for you to answer!
What's the answer? Got any independent documentation?
 
Gdentallab

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both furnaces are on the top. i believe there's an option that i only found in the Dekema,
i don't know about both performances,i don't own neither dekema, nor zubler, but sure one of those furnaces, will be my next.
the option of being able to put the sprue former in whatever position u want is something interesting, even multi sprue former!

ai43.tinypic.com_2d9qqlg.jpg
ai43.tinypic.com_2d9qqlg.jpg
 
2thm8kr

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There ya go Chris,
A question that it would be entirely appropriate for you to answer!
What's the answer? Got any independent documentation?

What's the final Mpa of e.max with a faster pressing?
popcorn
 
Zubler USA

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HERE WE GO!

Lithium disilicate melts at 885C. to achieve this meting temperature inside the ring, the typical program rases to a hold temperature higher than that of the melting temperature. This all has to do with the thermal mass of the object the energy is being put into.

A strait line heat thus causes the inside of the ring to have a temperature lower than that of the outside of the ring. This causes the material to press to a temperature much higher than that of the insdide of the ring, thus overheating the material and causing it to append itself to the investment it is pressed to. This causes the reaction layer everyone hates. This is why you pay for and have to use an acid bath.

The optimal pressing situation is to have the inside of the ring, outside of the ring and chamber all at the same temperature when it is time to press. In order to achieve this environment, the firing perameters have to be changed to accomidate the thermal mass of the investment and material.

That being said the normal rate rise to a hold temperature that you press to will not work.

Our system raises the heat and then drops it so that when we press ALL the temperatures are the same, thus not overheating the lithium disilicate and providing the optimal environment. May I now add that this allows for a reaction layer free pressing, saving you 3/4 of the time you spend on processing a unit. approximately 1/2 the oven processing time, no time in an acid bath. Which also saves you money on acid!

The way we process the Lithium disilicate does not negatively affect the properties of the lithium disilicate in any way. The process merely changes the firing perameters to actually accomidate the thermal mass.

Our brochure which is available online will more specifically explain the actual temperatures I am referring to. below is the brochure link.

http://www.zubler.de/files/m_vp300e_en_110209.pdf

Chris
 
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Gav

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Thanks for the input. I have made my decision. Seeing as 98% of my work is porcelain I'm going to get a Dekema 624 and press in a friend's oven when needed. If the emax stuff takes off I'll get a Zubler for pressing further down the line.
Chris, I'm in Italy so you wouldn't have got any commission anyway ;)
thanks for the info anyway.

Gav
 
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Thanks for the input. I have made my decision. Seeing as 98% of my work is porcelain I'm going to get a Dekema 624 and press in a friend's oven when needed. If the emax stuff takes off I'll get a Zubler for pressing further down the line.
Chris, I'm in Italy so you wouldn't have got any commission anyway ;)
thanks for the info anyway.

Gav

If Emax takes off ! ... Emax has knocked the wind out of pfms.. In the US.. pfms are losing ground by the second to emax and zirconia-layered or monolithic...
Seconds , not minutes
 
Zubler USA

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No problem Gav, look forward to hearing from you some other time, Just so you know. I do not work on commission. As crazy as it may sound, I actually like helping.

Chris
 
PDC

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both furnaces are on the top. i believe there's an option that i only found in the Dekema,
i don't know about both performances,i don't own neither dekema, nor zubler, but sure one of those furnaces, will be my next.
the option of being able to put the sprue former in whatever position u want is something interesting, even multi sprue former!

ai43.tinypic.com_2d9qqlg.jpg

I just wonder how many split rings occur with this system. It just seems like there isn't much investment thickness when you have that many plungers involved.
ai43.tinypic.com_2d9qqlg.jpg
 
CoolHandLuke

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lots. i can't count the number of times weve mispressed or split a ring with that mushroom thingymajig.

the trick, as we have found is not merely the space to the wall, but also the sprue length and plunger height.

a very delicate balance for the dekema.
 
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Chris

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Vario press 300 is one of the Best ovens i have used and i use many in my 41 years as a Ceramist. Chris Tackett CDT
 
lcmlabforum

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Now there is 2 Chris's - same person?
Thanks Zubler Chris - good to have a well thought out explanation.
Not that I don't trust you, but being a 'scientific' person, are there
publications to support the hypothesis - ie. that a faster rate of
heat and dropping it after reaching the temp, would bring temperature
of all parts of the investment, ring and chamber to the same temperature?
I supposed being used to old rings/ringless investments, we were trained
to raise at 15 degrees/minute or something like that, to hold for some
time to let all parts of pattern burn out and reach the right casting
temperature, etc. This would seem counter intuitive that a faster
rate of climb would create a more even temperature distribution
pattern . . . but you guys probably have proprietary research
data you cannot share? Would your technique work for conventional
ring for casting alloys or only for a pressed method?
LCM
 
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If Emax takes off ! ... Emax has knocked the wind out of pfms.. In the US.. pfms are losing ground by the second to emax and zirconia-layered or monolithic...
Seconds , not minutes


Yeah, they are popular here too but at my lab we don't do many. Some colleagues are doing 100% Emax.
 

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