Zirkon Zahn M1 wet heavy - for CoCr and Titan?

cadfan

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Support is not question of local area . Support can be done 90 % with teamviewer and phone, are they able to solve my problems or specific requirements .it doesent help me if i want to mill bars or abutments if the support guys have no experience. Support for me is can i learn how to repair my mill or special functions are their any trainings ,try this with vhf no chance.Can i go to the factory for special individual lesson .Are they able to support my cam software solving special problems and strategies. So brain ZZ but for metal imes or yenadent . the 450 is real proofed the DC 40 is maybe real good ask Tyler from Parkway he has the direct comparsion btw imes and yenadent quality.For me personal the yenadent DC 40 looks interesting but in that price range a little bit less technical data.
 
Terry Whitty

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I
Support is not question of local area . Support can be done 90 % with teamviewer and phone, are they able to solve my problems or specific requirements .it doesent help me if i want to mill bars or abutments if the support guys have no experience. Support for me is can i learn how to repair my mill or special functions are their any trainings ,try this with vhf no chance.Can i go to the factory for special individual lesson .Are they able to support my cam software solving special problems and strategies. So brain ZZ but for metal imes or yenadent . the 450 is real proofed the DC 40 is maybe real good ask Tyler from Parkway he has the direct comparsion btw imes and yenadent quality.For me personal the yenadent DC 40 looks interesting but in that price range a little bit less technical data.
I think you are dead right when you say support is more than location specific. It's lots of things, agreed.
However, if you are a newbie it sure helps having someone around close to hold your hand.
Sure the ultimate goal is to learn your machines well and hopefully know how to fix them in house...
 
Tramp

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Really i don't need any support. Now i have AG motion 1, and i use support once. 2 years ago
 
Drizzt

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It really comes down to what u want to do . If you want to stop castin , there are other cheaper ways . Buy a scanner and a small mill , and design and outsource everything you have in metal to be made with laser sintering . Here in Greece , they are offering laser sintered copings for 6-7 euros . It doesn't make sense to cast anymore . And if you want to make custom abutments , you can have Yenadent D43 with wet option , 1 kw spindle and 3r system , and make custom abutments from premilled cyliders ( interface and scre hole already milled by an industrial machine ) . All that for less money than anything you mentioned . If you have bars , and you want to have premium quality , outsource them . Hope that helps .
 
cadfan

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Really i don't need any support. Now i have AG motion 1, and i use support once. 2 years ago

thats true but you can only do things that are proofed and released from AG and thats not to much limited tooling cad options materials and so on , especially closed cam. and restricted cad. have you tried big cases with sintron ? You can mill hard stuff too but i think they wouldn't allow it because they sell sintron and thats part of the restricted cad and closed cam software.
 
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Pieter

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Hi,

Could you tell me if this machine is good for CoCr milling and Titan?

I read in brochure that is has spindle motors 200w:
http://www.zirkonzahn.com/assets/files/brochueren/EN-Brochure-CADCAM-OP-web.pdf page 56

How such weak spindle can mill in hard metals?

VHS machines have 600w, imes icore for CoCr and titan is 1 000 w, so how Zirkon Zahn is doing it?

I'm really confused....

http://www.zirkonzahn.com/en/cad-cam-systems/milling-unit-m1
The ZZ M1 is a very good machine aimed at Small Labs doing High end work requiring versatility. It is not meant for high production of metal copings,frames and titanium bars.Rather for specialist cases where you want to be in control of what you do. ZZ also have a M6 with 14 x blank changer for higher production needs.
 
DentalMachineMan

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I am reading that very interesting topic because the choice of milling machine was my problem in recent past. I have considered : vhf , zz, imes, yena, etc. so when I decided to mill the metall too, I understand that only an heavy hardware machine allow to work for years with precision and accuracy.
Small milling machine are too light. My choice has been for an italian machine of over 600 kg of weight and 5 axis , dry and wet. I think the heavy construction is fundamental to avoid vibration during the metal milling.
 
DentalCreators by Venture

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Venture Dental milling machine Serie 10 ;)
 
CoolHandLuke

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have none of you ever taken a basic machine shop course?

the Wattage of your mill has 0 impact on the quality of the finished product. 0. nada.

the wattage of your mill merely is an indicator of how much speed and torque it can provide - and anyone who knows about milling metals will know there are formulas to determining cutting speed, and different formulas for different tools such as the ball end mill, toroid and multi-carbide.

knowing that the correct machining speed for metal is dependent on its properties, determines how much current will need to be produced.

assuming this is a spindle that works solely on electricity (which it doesnt)

air-fed spindles are essentially air-motors. they use compressed air to obtain a higher torque (and some of them use an electric motor to get the first 10 000 rpm going, before opening the valve) and use less overall electricity, and make the machine far less prone to static electricity discharge or magnetization.

so READ THE LITERATURE, 200W or 600W you will have to determine its peak power output (peak torque at what speed) to determine if it is at all good for milling your potential material.

in order to do that, get the material specs from your supplier, calculate your required cutting speed with the burs in your desired mill, and match that number to the power of the mill. you don't simply run the mill at 30k rpm for every job and expect smooth edges or nice surfaces, thats not how metal works.

typically you will want a mill that has 2x the peak power output of your typical mill job requirements. this is to ensure you always have enough power (that it isn't straining to cut your piece),and are not placing the mill at its highest output at all times; you don't drive your car at 200mph and disconnect the brakes that would not be sensible and your car wouldnt last long. so too do you use a greater number in your mill, because redlining your mill every time you use it will not make it last long.

Titanium is a SOFT metal. it is an aluminum derivative. it is simply more lightweight and has a higher tensile strength than some steel. it does not need much more power than an aluminum mill. it must be wet milled.

your standard industrial milling machine used in machine shops is a belt-driven electric motor spindle with only 6-12 speeds and 3 to 4 horsepower (3000 w at 4 hp) powered by 220vAC. it has this power in order to use tools to mill more than 1/4" at a time off of its stock using a 1/2" tool, not tiny wafers from a tiny tool like a cnc might do.

if that (which was meant to be hand operated and NOT numerically controlled) can mill 24-7 there is potential for smaller mills to do smaller production and not spend the enormous amounts of money and floorspace.

guys there is very very little need for a Haas, much less need for its power capacity if you are a simple lab trying to cut a few partials.

even if you are trying to compete with ***, i'd not buy such a thing. i would look to the proper machining tools for industrial CNC such as Deckel Maho (first choice) or Bridgeport (what i described above)
 
2thm8kr

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have none of you ever taken a basic machine shop course?

the Wattage of your mill has 0 impact on the quality of the finished product. 0. nada.

the wattage of your mill merely is an indicator of how much speed and torque it can provide - and anyone who knows about milling metals will know there are formulas to determining cutting speed, and different formulas for different tools such as the ball end mill, toroid and multi-carbide.

knowing that the correct machining speed for metal is dependent on its properties, determines how much current will need to be produced.

assuming this is a spindle that works solely on electricity (which it doesnt)

air-fed spindles are essentially air-motors. they use compressed air to obtain a higher torque (and some of them use an electric motor to get the first 10 000 rpm going, before opening the valve) and use less overall electricity, and make the machine far less prone to static electricity discharge or magnetization.

so READ THE LITERATURE, 200W or 600W you will have to determine its peak power output (peak torque at what speed) to determine if it is at all good for milling your potential material.

in order to do that, get the material specs from your supplier, calculate your required cutting speed with the burs in your desired mill, and match that number to the power of the mill. you don't simply run the mill at 30k rpm for every job and expect smooth edges or nice surfaces, thats not how metal works.

typically you will want a mill that has 2x the peak power output of your typical mill job requirements. this is to ensure you always have enough power (that it isn't straining to cut your piece),and are not placing the mill at its highest output at all times; you don't drive your car at 200mph and disconnect the brakes that would not be sensible and your car wouldnt last long. so too do you use a greater number in your mill, because redlining your mill every time you use it will not make it last long.

Titanium is a SOFT metal. it is an aluminum derivative. it is simply more lightweight and has a higher tensile strength than some steel. it does not need much more power than an aluminum mill. it must be wet milled.

your standard industrial milling machine used in machine shops is a belt-driven electric motor spindle with only 6-12 speeds and 3 to 4 horsepower (3000 w at 4 hp) powered by 220vAC. it has this power in order to use tools to mill more than 1/4" at a time off of its stock using a 1/2" tool, not tiny wafers from a tiny tool like a cnc might do.

if that (which was meant to be hand operated and NOT numerically controlled) can mill 24-7 there is potential for smaller mills to do smaller production and not spend the enormous amounts of money and floorspace.

guys there is very very little need for a Haas, much less need for its power capacity if you are a simple lab trying to cut a few partials.

even if you are trying to compete with ***, i'd not buy such a thing. i would look to the proper machining tools for industrial CNC such as Deckel Maho (first choice) or Bridgeport (what i described above)


Titanium is NOT a derivative of aluminum, it is an element, #22 on the periodic table.
 
CoolHandLuke

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thats not what i meant. i mean machining wise the characteristics of doing titanium and aluminum are somewhat the same; titanium is only 60% more dense than aluminum but twice as hard, but still not as dense as Steel (or any of its alloys)
 
2thm8kr

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thats not what i meant. i mean machining wise the characteristics of doing titanium and aluminum are somewhat the same; titanium is only 60% more dense than aluminum but twice as hard, but still not as dense as Steel (or any of its alloys)
I thought you were making an analogy as in morphine is a derivative of opium.
 
CoolHandLuke

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lets put some numbers on the board.

your spindle speed should be N

your Feed speed (how fast the cutter moves along the surface of the piece) will be V

your cutter will be D

(remembering we are using Metric mm for cutting diameter)

N=318.3(V/D)

V is given in most Shop Handbooks in a Feet-per-minute number. pick one up or a copy of one from your local machineshop. (or use google) but remember V will change with the grade of titanium used. 99.0 is actually rated for a different V than 99.5.

and so you can see, for each successively smaller bur, you need an increase in spindle speed. make sure your software knows that, because this is not the case when milling zirconia.
 
zero_zero

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have none of you ever taken a basic machine shop course?
..............

Titanium is a SOFT metal. it is an aluminum derivative. it is simply more lightweight and has a higher tensile strength than some steel. it does not need much more power than an aluminum mill. it must be wet milled.
..............

Gotta disagree with ya Luke...the only common thing between Al and Ti is light weight in comparison with steel...( Ti density is roughly double of Al's ). Machining wise they're totally different...while Al is soft and has a relatively high thermal conductivity, can be easily cut dry with high feed/plunge rates, practically any with tool type...even the DWX50 can do it (with proper strategies) <-- my own experience ;)...
Cutting Ti on the other hand is like cutting stainless steel, only tougher since it's thermal conductivity is low...heavy flood cooling is necessary with special chlorine free fluids...
It's also subject to work hardening in contact with the tool along the cutting edge...the shearing angle is increased because there's no stationary mass ahead of the tool ( it doesn't build up like steel does) , resulting in high loads and localized heat (since it doesn't conduct heat away rapidly it tends to gall to the tool). It needs high torque at slow cutting speeds and constant high feed rates (cannot let the tool dwell, in contrast with other materials)...to keep heat formation at minimum. It has a lower modulus of elasticity than steel, it tends to deflect from tool pressure and cause chatter...that's why a heavy rigid rig is required to keep close tolerances...look at the desktop (metal capable) mill's products...they're all full with tool chatter... that's why they came out with premilled abutments...it is tough to cut an interface to the required tolerances...:rolleyes:
Cutting strategies also need to be setup accordingly...like plunge should be arced in vs. straight line (couldn't figure out how to do this with Sum3d...yet),needs climb milling vs. conventional feed, changing depth of cut at each pass, radial tool engagement should be kept under 40% ( in contrast Al can be cut at full slotting )...etc. etc. How do I know these ? Lately I became a regular at a local machine shop...figured that would be the best place to learn CNC before venturing into metal cutting...:D (hope I can keep up with the beer demand)

even if you are trying to compete with ***, i'd not buy such a thing. i would look to the proper machining tools for industrial CNC such as Deckel Maho (first choice) or Bridgeport (what i described above)

For the price point and demand is hard to beat the Haas...IMO
 
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