Zirconium Titanium Hybrid?

[CoolHandLuke]

heres Lee Cain demoing 3shape implant bridge

 

[CoolHandLuke]

but again this video while it shows the gingiva feature, is useless because it incorporates no bar.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

glidewell, but again no bar!

 

[CoolHandLuke]

heres a bar but no hybrid overlay

do you begin to see now how it is a process that is not so simple that theres a youtube video to demo it?

everyone expects something different from their bar

everyone expects something different from their hybrid

so going start to finish would only serve to demo how i like and want it - not how the industry standardized the practice.

i could suggest OP to have the case re-evaluated from the ground up, to disregard the bar and go screw retained with ti bases - but im not sure how open to suggestion he would be. obvs spent a bunch of time and money making the bar. to throw it away would be hard to do.

but using it in the final would be just as hard.

 

[Sevan P]

First off - why the heck did you make that frame? Would have been much more simple to go full zirconia with ti bases. Jus' sayin'...

He didn't make that frame on 3shape, he was using the images as a reference to what he wants to be able to do on 3shape. All on 4 or prettau style bridges are not for all cases, this works better for some then others.

 

[Sevan P]

I don't recall asking you to write a step by step, I wouldn't write one either. Certainly the responsibility is on the end user and whom ever they have a contract with for support. Obviously their reseller support is pretty lame. What I take issue with is the comment "we do, it just doesn't fly out of our mouths". I doubt you, me or anyone else here learned every single thing we know about this crazy business on their own. " Call your reseller", seems to be the motto of 3Shape users here, heard it many times. Certainly we are not obligated to do sh!t to forward this industry. Let's all keep everyone relying on corporate to steer this ship.

Anyone here think you know something about what you are doing, mentor someone who truely wants to learn. You will help them and you will learn exponentially more and you are contributing to the future advancement of dental technology. Sometimes all it takes is putting the right jigsaw piece in the right place in someone's mind. The OP is obviously not a noob to CAD and can probably figure out some of the basic functions on their own in short time, throw 'em a bone.

And I did help the guy out, but telling him what he needs to do! Learn something first on your own then reach out for assistance. I'm not saying I'm never going to help any one out and try to better the industry, I have help many out on here and have no issue doing so, but if your gonna step into something big with out giving freaking .5% of effort to figure it out on your own then why should I give you any help.

And this has nothing to do with closed system mentality, don;t know where the hell you pulled that out of. I helped out a co-worker in our lab learn how to design, but he approached me and said I want to learn the basics, not I want to be able to do a all on 4 bridges with gingival and the works, there is a big difference between knowing nothing and starting out with the basics and knowing nothing and trying to go big from the get go. Just like learning how to wax before becoming a ceramist opposed to becoming a ceramist from the get go, there is a process involved to get to what you want to be and do.

If you know how to do it then why don't you help the poor guy out instead of bashing us for not giving him what you see to be the proper guidance?

Just saying

 

[2thm8kr]

If you know how to do it then why don't you help the poor guy out instead of bashing us for not giving him what you see to be the proper guidance?

Just saying

I would if I were as versed on 3shape as some of you guys. If the guy went with exo I would be of more use.

I am not implying that you don't help anyone here even though my post does seem pointed at you. You are like the 3Shape exterminator around here working out bugs. lol
The OP didn't ask for a step by step and has experience with other CAD programs, so not a noob trying to fly before crawling. Simple things like what Luke posted points people
into the right direction. Thanks for the explanation of how things work in a lab.

 

[Sevan P]

I would if I were as versed on 3shape as some of you guys. If the guy went with exo I would be of more use.

I am not implying that you don't help anyone here even though my post does seem pointed at you. You are like the 3Shape exterminator around here working out bugs. lol
The OP didn't ask for a step by step and has experience with other CAD programs, so not a noob trying to fly before crawling. Simple things like what Luke posted points people
into the right direction. Thanks for the explanation of how things work in a lab.

I hear you buddy, but in today's lab world google and you tube are your best friends, why the OP didn't even bother to search as well and say that he did beats me, I do everything in my power to find out what I can then if i'm stumped i reach out and ask for a lending hand, which I have no issues with. With what experience he has on other cad system he should be able to figure out stuff fairly easy if his words are true. These are complex cases and even the best of the best run into issues. I give him props on trying to ski a double black diamond on his first run, but it all comes down to the principle of things in the end.

Let's all just agree to move on and not bicker back and forth. im all for that.

 

[2thm8kr]

I hear you buddy, but in today's lab world google and you tube are your best friends, why the OP didn't even bother to search as well and say that he did beats me, I do everything in my power to find out what I can then if i'm stumped i reach out and ask for a lending hand, which I have no issues with. With what experience he has on other cad system he should be able to figure out stuff fairly easy if his words are true. These are complex cases and even the best of the best run into issues. I give him props on trying to ski a double black diamond on his first run, but it all comes down to the principle of things in the end.

Let's all just agree to move on and not bicker back and forth. im all for that.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

 

[2thm8kr]

Thefinger

 

[CoolHandLuke]

we still have yet to hear from OP. maybe he will have more information or some updates.

 

[2thm8kr]

Too bad for Marvin.

 

[Sevan P]

No image Luke

we still have yet to hear from OP. maybe he will have more information or some updates.

LOL the way this thread went we may never hear from him under that user name.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

which post is missing an image for you sevan

 

[Marylandfarmer]

First off - why the heck did you make that frame? Would have been much more simple to go full zirconia with ti bases. Jus' sayin'...

To answer, this is an old frame, one used in a study I had laying around. I just waxed some teeth on some base plate wax. I thought a titanium frame with zirconium teeth and gingival would be pretty strong...

Zirconium bar utilizing Ti bases? Maybe, I'm kind of a belt and suspenders guy. I've been in this industry since 1984 and I have seen a lot of things come and go. I tend to over engineer things. I have colleagues that have had to re-cement the ti bases to the zirconium bar several times. I think this design would be an easy way to get what I want. After learning to use the tools in the software and I think this would be a very strong restoration. I mean it should not be that difficult of a thing to do, copy the wax up and mill an stl file of the copy.

We have been doing this kind of case utilizing a metal frame with denture teeth and acrylic base for about 36 years. Starting with waxing up a frame, casting it, cut, soldered, cut and soldered etc... Then we started scanning the cast, designing and having titanium frames milled, which fit great but still using denture teeth and acrylic. They are great but the teeth do not last. The teeth usually need to be replaced every 5 years or so and teeth will break off regularly. These are very expensive and patients expect them to last.

Go to the rep for training? OK why not just add this addendum to your site... "Only ask a question here after you have been to the vendor you bought your system from and have spent at least___ hours working on "said question" on your own" Why not just get it over with and say "Prepare to be assimilated, resistance is futile". If I stayed in the lines there is no way I would be where I am today. I find you need to push these systems to do what you need them to do. And I thought there may be someone out there that would give a hint or two. I never asked for a paint by numbers plan I just asked "what module would you use?"

Why don't you start with more basic cases? We are, and I have, but seriously, 90% of the cases we do are implant retained cases.We purchased the system in December, I went to Troy Mi. for training in Feb and we have just gotten our system up and running now. It sucks but I have no time machine to go back and change things up until now. I have spent the last 2 days with the vendor milling tech, in house getting our mill all setup. So now we are really on line now and ready to go. I asked during the training about these types of advanced cases and have been told that is an advanced case you will need to work up to that. I understand.

I may be new to 3 shape but I have been in the rodeo for a while. I started out using a Nobel Biocare Mod 40 scanning dies to make zirconium copings then we got a Forte scanner and we started designing bars. Those original bars were being sold by Nobel to stack porcelain on. How many of you guys are stacking porcelain on titanium? I didn't think so. They did not recommend, or even tell us it could be done when we started making CP Titanium bars and putting denture teeth and acrylic on them, that was our idea. Then along comes a thing called "All on 4"/none on 3, and a practice called "Clear Choice dental" I am not asking for your secrets. It seems if someone is willing to buy it, they will make it. I find that relying on "The vendor" to tell me how to do this stuff is a good source, but not necessarily the only source to be used.

I never asked anyone to spoon feed me this stuff, all I asked is what module would you use. It seems like everything I try to do, the software tells me "you cant do that". I mean, I bought the custom abutment module and by the time we got it the FDA has shut down the ability to use most of the module in the USA. I am sure most of you guys are sitting on a pre 2015 version of the software that would allow in-house milling. If you don't think a small group of guys are trying to take over this industry you are very naive.

I am a CDT, I am a graduate of Lab school, I am a graduate from specialized maxilofacial prosthetic training. I have been working with implants since 1984. I have helped others learn and I have learned from others. From the other posts I have seen in this thread I am not the only one looking to learn this skill. When I do learn this I will let you guys know.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

so you do want to continue making ti bars and adding zirconia overlay ? this you will have to engineer yourself.

let me give you a tip though, to help save time and aggravation with scanning.

do the design of the bar in 3 shape, then when it is time to design the zirconia use the Copy function. right click on your order, select Copy and Append design to preparation scan.

this will generate a new order, and pull up an order form.

at this stage just click OK and leave that new order ALONE.

scan the waxup in yet another new order and also save and leave it alone. if the waxup is on the bar on the SAME model as before for the bar, this will work: create the final order, mark the order as having a waxup, do your tooth elements and gingiva however they need to be. click OK, and IMPORT the scans from the previous two orders. to do this select your order, right click select import scans, and navigate to the location of the orders as appropriate. the import window will prompt you for what scan it needs.

this is why its important to segregate it - the order with the Appended design of the bar will have no holes in it, never need rescanning, and be a smooth working area with no distortion. once you begin working you can align the waxup and bar model using the alignment tools BUT only if they are scans of the WHOLE model - of the waxup and of the bar. the landmarks made un the palatal or lip areas will be the landmarks needed to align the wax over the bar for you to copy.

look i wish you the very best. but this is as you correctly pointed out, overengineered. a zirconia with no bar would appear far less grey and much more natural and a lot lighter weight. but if bars are your thing then more power to you. best of luck.

i'd like to help but honestly i can be of no further use here. been working 3shape since 06-7 and theres just too many preferences to juggle to help you further.

either way let us know how it goes.

 

[Sevan P]

which post is missing an image for you sevan

Never mind it came through, LOL

 

[Sevan P]

You do know people charge upwards of 1500.00 for training right?

To answer, this is an old frame, one used in a study I had laying around. I just waxed some teeth on some base plate wax. I thought a titanium frame with zirconium teeth and gingival would be pretty strong...

Zirconium bar utilizing Ti bases? Maybe, I'm kind of a belt and suspenders guy. I've been in this industry since 1984 and I have seen a lot of things come and go. I tend to over engineer things. I have colleagues that have had to re-cement the ti bases to the zirconium bar several times. I think this design would be an easy way to get what I want. After learning to use the tools in the software and I think this would be a very strong restoration. I mean it should not be that difficult of a thing to do, copy the wax up and mill an stl file of the copy.

We have been doing this kind of case utilizing a metal frame with denture teeth and acrylic base for about 36 years. Starting with waxing up a frame, casting it, cut, soldered, cut and soldered etc... Then we started scanning the cast, designing and having titanium frames milled, which fit great but still using denture teeth and acrylic. They are great but the teeth do not last. The teeth usually need to be replaced every 5 years or so and teeth will break off regularly. These are very expensive and patients expect them to last.

Go to the rep for training? OK why not just add this addendum to your site... "Only ask a question here after you have been to the vendor you bought your system from and have spent at least___ hours working on "said question" on your own" Why not just get it over with and say "Prepare to be assimilated, resistance is futile". If I stayed in the lines there is no way I would be where I am today. I find you need to push these systems to do what you need them to do. And I thought there may be someone out there that would give a hint or two. I never asked for a paint by numbers plan I just asked "what module would you use?"

Why don't you start with more basic cases? We are, and I have, but seriously, 90% of the cases we do are implant retained cases.We purchased the system in December, I went to Troy Mi. for training in Feb and we have just gotten our system up and running now. It sucks but I have no time machine to go back and change things up until now. I have spent the last 2 days with the vendor milling tech, in house getting our mill all setup. So now we are really on line now and ready to go. I asked during the training about these types of advanced cases and have been told that is an advanced case you will need to work up to that. I understand.

I may be new to 3 shape but I have been in the rodeo for a while. I started out using a Nobel Biocare Mod 40 scanning dies to make zirconium copings then we got a Forte scanner and we started designing bars. Those original bars were being sold by Nobel to stack porcelain on. How many of you guys are stacking porcelain on titanium? I didn't think so. They did not recommend, or even tell us it could be done when we started making CP Titanium bars and putting denture teeth and acrylic on them, that was our idea. Then along comes a thing called "All on 4"/none on 3, and a practice called "Clear Choice dental" I am not asking for your secrets. It seems if someone is willing to buy it, they will make it. I find that relying on "The vendor" to tell me how to do this stuff is a good source, but not necessarily the only source to be used.

I never asked anyone to spoon feed me this stuff, all I asked is what module would you use. It seems like everything I try to do, the software tells me "you cant do that". I mean, I bought the custom abutment module and by the time we got it the FDA has shut down the ability to use most of the module in the USA. I am sure most of you guys are sitting on a pre 2015 version of the software that would allow in-house milling. If you don't think a small group of guys are trying to take over this industry you are very naive.

I am a CDT, I am a graduate of Lab school, I am a graduate from specialized maxilofacial prosthetic training. I have been working with implants since 1984. I have helped others learn and I have learned from others. From the other posts I have seen in this thread I am not the only one looking to learn this skill. When I do learn this I will let you guys know.

When you bought your system did you retailer offer you training either in house or at a facility? Not saying you have no clue on what your doing but you need to learn basic functions of the order manager in order to know what you doing. The abutment design module will only allow you to do abutment only, no implant bridges or bars, that is a completely different module. These type of cases can easily be done on three shape either a split file or two separate scans. And if you knew the software like I do then in 2015 you can still MFG in house abutments, just saying........................................ FDA or no FDA where there is a will there is a way. But essential knowledge of the software is a must. You tube is your freind as well many vidoes on bars and stuff on there,

We have no issue helping you out if you run into a problem while doing something, don't get us wrong. But I think i gave you some very good starter info on my first post.

Who did you purchase the D2000 from?

To also add to it the D2000 is not yet ready to do copy from wax-up yet, You can do them a individual unit but a bridge is not fully functional yet. There are a lot of things the D2000 still has yet to run yet.

There are so many work arounds that it's no even funny, things I have picked up and learned in the 4 years I have been on 3shape, learn and know more then some people other then CoolHandLuke. We were on of the first labs to have a D2000 when they launched it, it has evolved since the launch heavily but certain things are not allowed yet.

 

[zero_zero]

................I asked during the training about these types of advanced cases and have been told that is an advanced case you will need to work up to that..........

The sad truth is: that most of the support personnel doesn't know advanced stuff, since it not only requires an in-depth knowledge of the software, but also a good understanding of the given technical aspect. Resellers don't want to get into this because it would increase their overhead, hence support boils down to mostly addressing trivial issues... All these "pro's" out there on social media or providing expensive training are mostly self taught, having spent long hours experimenting to figure out ways to get things done.

After all my experience with dental CAD, when it comes to advanced work, I'm looking at it more like just another tool to use and take advantage, not like a solution to replace the entire workflow. Given the complexity of the implant borne structures there's no existing workflow (as of now, to my knowledge) to cover all scenarios you could throw at it. Our work is being about 75% implants, prosthodontics and TMJD's, I had to come up with creative ways to make things easy designing and producing these restorations, using the latest materials. Apart from getting the work done mostly digitally, I still have to augment it here and there with the true and tried analog methods. After having "fun" with 3shape for more than five years, got tired with it's ever increasing restrictiveness and switched to Exo, yet still using a variety of 3D editors to get certain things done...

Here's an example of an implant supported temp bridge with flange, mostly digital workflow, finished the old fashion way. Patient is overclosed w/ severe TMJ and resorbed alveolar ridge, a future full mouth reconstruction. Some implants were paced, alleviated the the TMJ issues with lower screw retained PEEK bite pads. Needed some long term temp solution till the maxillo facial reconstructive surgery is done. Opted for a hybrid PEEK bar with with a PMMA secondary structure (done digitally) with an acrylic flange done the analog route... This type of of workflow is not readily supported by any "dental" CAD , so I had to rely on 3rd party software to compensate for any shortcomings. Bar, teeth, flange (not produced digitally, only for visualization) were all designed digitally, bar and teeth were cut and glued together (used some thick ortho wire as well to be on the safe side)...have yet to find a way to mill (or print ?) the flange and still be able to seamlessly bind the three parts together.