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    Zirconia Shade frustrations

    Discussion in 'Zirconium' started by PDC, May 30, 2017.

    1. PDC

      PDC Active Member Full Member

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      Every office is different (thank goodness). I have a Cerec account who tells me that my FCZ's look much better than his milled chairside stuff. He calls his Cerec zirconia his "white gold crown" because they look like a white piece of chalk and is his substitute for a Full gold crown. He claims he uses his stuff for the rush cases...I told him that it was fine with me...I don't like doing rush stuff anyway.

      Some docs are more conscientious than others just like many of us in the lab business. Just hard to accept sometimes.
       
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    2. user name
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      user name Well-Known Member Full Member

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      Im with ya. The asst that said they look the same, I think she often gets to pick the shade. One time I was picking up a case, and she said, 'wait. Why don't you change that one to to a C-2'. ( I think the Rx said A-2.) I asked if that's what the Dr wanted, and she said 'its probably just a little more C-2ish, like , she has that authority and she can recall a shade better when the patient isn't there any longer. I should have called her the next day and said, I forgot. Did you want that one light, medium or dark.Banghead
       
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    3. PDC

      PDC Active Member Full Member

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      Thanks to a DLN member I finally got to try some of the Zolid FX...Wow! Katana can't hold a candle to this stuff in my opinion. I hope to do a lot more of this. Posting a few photos, but the camera just doesn't do it justice.


      IMG_1560.JPG IMG_1563.JPG IMG_1564.JPG IMG_1552.JPG
       
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    4. BobCDT

      BobCDT Well-Known Member Full Member

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      Looks really nice. Good work...
       
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      user name Well-Known Member Full Member

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    6. PDC

      PDC Active Member Full Member

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      6 & 7 singles. 8-11 splinted with10 and 11 double abutted.
       
    7. charles007
      Grumpy

      charles007 Well-Known Member Full Member

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      Using Katana now with my milling lab and its nice. Used FX Solid earlier and its much more translucent..
      In my eyes FX is 2 steps ahead of Katana..
      fyi using Katana STML/ UTML going on 3 months now so I've seen as good as it gets with these material on
      both anteriors, posteriors and bridges.
       
    8. PDC

      PDC Active Member Full Member

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      I agree...FX is the leader. Katana isn't as strong and doesn't have the complete range of shades. I am really reluctant to try the Katana on posterior cases...not so with the FX.

      It seems that the selection of translucent materials continues to improve with regards to shades and strength from most all of the vendors. Those companies and milling centers that don't have their radars on will fall behind very quickly if not offering the new and improved stuff. I'm not sure buying in bulk is a good move anymore. To make it in the lab industry today requires a lot of flexibility and adaptability. You gotta sleep with one eye open!
       
    9. user name
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      user name Well-Known Member Full Member

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      Huh? Im pretty sure the Katana is stronger and comes in a wider range of shades.
       
    10. PDC

      PDC Active Member Full Member

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      I stand corrected on the shades I guess. Katana does offer 16 shades in the UTML. I missed that since Straumann for some reason doesn't offer all of the shades for some reason. :banghead:

      The tech specs on strength for the Zolid are a little better than Katana's according to their product info.

      https://www.henryschein.com/us-en/images/Zahn/KATANA-UTML-Insert-for-Zahn-Sales.pdf
      https://www.amanngirrbach.us/produc...ramill-zirconia/ceramill-zolid-fx-multilayer/
       
    11. PRO ARTS DL

      PRO ARTS DL Member Full Member

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      AG now offers the 16 VITA shades they announced them a few weeks ago.

      Haven't tried any of the C and D shades though
       
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    12. Sda36

      Sda36 Active Member Full Member

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      My understanding from Bob Cohen is that the Zolid FX Multi will not degrade strength wise over time. That's considerable.
       
    13. cadfan
      Amused

      cadfan Well-Known Member Full Member

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      New Dental Labor study Universty of Kiel breaking load after 5 year chewing simulation 1.2 milion cycles 5-55 deg celsius alternating load
      DD Bio ZX 2 plus 11 % 7038 Newton goes up to 7821
      Cube X HS minus 19 percent 6779 Newton goes down 5497
      DD cube X 2 5870 Newton goes down to 3623 minus 38 percent so maybe a lot of questions !!??
      These were ideal preped crowns with min thickness especially at the margin cemented on the stumps so i could imagine what happened if not everything is perfect !!
       
    14. PDC

      PDC Active Member Full Member

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      So now I have been informed that as of April, Argen has gone to wet milling in an effort to cut down on the number of chipped margins. That seems to correspond to when the shades started getting real bad. I don't know what their remake factor was with chipped margins but I can tell you that it's much worse now for me with bad shades.
       
    15. JohnWilson

      JohnWilson Moderator Staff Member Full Member

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      I don't know how factual all this is but I can tell you as a lab that uses a TON of different Zirconia and have the ability to mill it wet I have not seen a need to EVER do it, but I sure as hell am not ramping any of my strategies up to try and crank em out. Now don't get bent, I am not calling you out and saying you are wrong, I am just make a few observations.

      Lets face it ARGEN is a milling center seeing a ton of different designs from some great techs that UNDERSTAND margin line offsets and do not alter from the suggested specs. They also see a ton of sh!t from techs that have no clue, working on preps that are **** and not recommended for certain materials.

      Zirconia, especially the CUBICS are awesome but they ALL still have min thickness and a sweet spot for strength. Any milling center worth its salt will mod their settings for min headaches to a get a product out the door that is in ONE PIECE. Not for ultimate end user results. Its a business and milling centers are looking for the fastest throughput with the highest milled success rate. Make sense?

      Also can you imagine a CAD tech in house taking every single unit and running it through a cross section tool to see if it falls inside of spec? No way in hell ANYONE is doing that UNTILL their is a problem, and you get a little email.

      As for coloring, why do you think the preshaded stuff is growing so much?

      1) It looks pretty decent with minimum work which leads to better consistency, and fast throughput
      2) The restorations today are a flipping commodity, if you are not controlling this side in house how do you expect to differentiate yourself and charge a premium? Do you really think you are that much better of a stain and glaze tech than what GW has?
      3) How long before NO stain and glaze is needed? What will you make then?

      I know I got off on a tangent and its going to get worse :) but as someone that has rode the zirconia boom and continues to profit from it I can tell you its NEXT TO IMPOSSIBLE to market singles today. At least for the price I CHOOSE to sell them for. Am I happy with the crowns we are selling? Heck yeah but clients today are wiser and have WAY MORE OPTIONS to get similar work. Building a relationship providing singles is not about the next greatest ZIRCONIA, in my opinion your crown is not going to be that much different. What is most important is the relationship and your ability to create consistency. THIS IS WHAT KEEPS them coming back.

      As I have stated in the past, I come on these forums not to stick my chest out and be the know it all, I am here because like many of you dentistry is my life. I have found a way to stay viable selling myself and consistency. I wish you all to be successful, as I wind up my career I am more afraid to see where this industry will be in 2 years, things are evolving fast and dentistry as a whole is really struggling. The GP's are fighting hard to produce and grow a business based on what the INSCO are providing. Many of my wiser clients today have to work harder for less, sound familiar?

      I'll leave you with a final thoughts to ponder,

      How are you going to stay viable, what will keep you in business. What do you need to do today to make sure you have a future in this trade.

      I know how I answered these question because I ask this every week month and year that I am in business.
       
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    16. grantoz
      Amused

      grantoz Well-Known Member Full Member

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      just be clear are we talking real a2 or fake a2 trump style
       

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