Zenostar frustration

BobCDT

BobCDT

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I would like to know how the zirconia manufacturers are determining the exact shrinkage rate for each disk?, because even between disks from the same patch there is a difference in shrinkage rate, Unless each disk is tested individually to determine the exact shrinkage rate which is difficult . For single units, the problem could be manageable, but in this case the problem is magnified.
Discs are not individually checked for shrinkage. They are batch tested and should all be the same within each batch. When you look at the disc manufacturing process, the powder used in each batch is all from a single batch. The powder press is set a the same huge pounds per square inch of pressing the powder into a disc form. The discs come out of this press and are all (100%) weighed to make sure the correct amount of powder dropped into the disc mold. Once pressed, each disc is individually shrink wrapped and then go into a cold isostatic press in most disc manufacturing facilities. This ensures even density throughout the disc. Uneven density can cause warpage but I would not necessarily conclude this to be John's problem. Not all companies use this second isostatic press step. Next, all the discs are pre-sintered in large sintering furnaces for 4-5 days with a max temp of about 1000C. This preshrinks the disc and burns out the binders that help hold the disc together during the first press cycle. It is this sintering cycle that determines Vickers hardness and thus tool usage and shrinkage of the batch. the hotter and or longer this cycle the less shrinkage we have and the harder the disc. There are other considerations for this sintering cycle such as managing this temp to reduce chipping when we mill the discs. Lastly, not all powders are created equal. Like everything else, there are high quality and low-quality powders readily available. Honestly, you tend to get what you pay for. Generally speaking, inexpensive discs are likely made from low-grade zirconia powders. They may work fine for single units but could be a contributing factor to John's problem. I don't really know what powder John's discs are made from but even Tosoh, the world leader in dental zirconia powder sells different grades of powders. I would suggest using high-end disks for large bridges to reduce potential problems.
 
DanM

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Quote Bob- "hotter and or longer this cycle the less shrinkage we have and the harder the disc"
Wasn't Zenostar known to be a hard milled material and then they came out with the softer, friendlier milling discs...could this account for the higher shrinkage value?
 
BobCDT

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It could be but I believe it is now made in a different facility and may be a totally different material. Maybe Patrick Coon can jump in and explain....
 
Patrick Coon

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It could be but I believe it is now made in a different facility and may be a totally different material. Maybe Patrick Coon can jump in and explain....

Same material, made in our Somerset, NJ facility now (for U.S.market). And, yes, I was told it was a change in the pre-sinter firing (not sure if it was time or temp though).
 
BobCDT

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Same material, made in our Somerset, NJ facility now (for U.S.market). And, yes, I was told it was a change in the pre-sinter firing (not sure if it was time or temp though).
Thanks, Patric,
Yes, the change in time or temp has made the material easier to mill but has likely increased shrinkage rates.
John, Have you tried making the most distal sprus thicker? We had the same problem and beefed up the spru diameter, problem gone.
 
rc75

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I would suggest using high-end disks for large bridges to reduce potential problems.

So you suggest paying a ridiculous amount for a " name brand" disc because it's name brand? My discs are NOT name brand and the quality
is pretty damn good. I have people calling daily to complain about name brand discs. Biggest complaint....' I'm currently buying from so and so
and their pre-shaded disc shades are waaaay off.' So please don't knock No Name brands @BobCDT unless you have a reason to.
 
BobCDT

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So you suggest paying a ridiculous amount for a " name brand" disc because it's name brand? My discs are NOT name brand and the quality
is pretty damn good. I have people calling daily to complain about name brand discs. Biggest complaint....' I'm currently buying from so and so
and their pre-shaded disc shades are waaaay off.' So please don't knock No Name brands @BobCDT unless you have a reason to.
Ron,
Can you please let us all in on more specifics as to what "pretty damn good" means in the world of zirconia discs?
Can you please point out where I had written "no name discs"? I don't believe I have written anything like this. I think this is more your problem than it is mine. I simply wrote, "you generally get what you pay for". There are millions of examples of this all around us. For instance, you will not get a new Bently for $20K, or a Porsche either but you can buy other cars at that price point. Like I said, you get what you pay for. Ron, do you not see a difference from a Porshe to a Kia? I have no knowledge of what you sell or give away for free. What I do know, the least expensive discs in the market are very likely made from inexpensive powders and may, I repeat MAY be made using inferior production protocols to save money, to reduce end user costs. Very simple economics. I am not pointing fingers at your products as I have zero, nada, no information as to the powders used nor the manufacturing process in your materials. For all your customers I sincerely hope it's pretty damn good:)
 
rc75

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Ron,
Can you please let us all in on more specifics as to what "pretty damn good" means in the world of zirconia discs?
Can you please point out where I had written "no name discs"? I don't believe I have written anything like this. I think this is more your problem than it is mine. I simply wrote, "you generally get what you pay for". There are millions of examples of this all around us. For instance, you will not get a new Bently for $20K, or a Porsche either but you can buy other cars at that price point. Like I said, you get what you pay for. Ron, do you not see a difference from a Porshe to a Kia? I have no knowledge of what you sell or give away for free. What I do know, the least expensive discs in the market are very likely made from inexpensive powders and may, I repeat MAY be made using inferior production protocols to save money, to reduce end user costs. Very simple economics. I am not pointing fingers at your products as I have zero, nada, no information as to the powders used nor the manufacturing process in your materials. For all your customers I sincerely hope it's pretty damn good:)

They are REALLY DAMN GOOD! :Top:
 
Jesse Zamarripa

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IMHO Its "problematic" compared to previous mfg disks for "FULL ARCH" work I am not a scientist but I try and think analytically. I look at everything we have done and had sucess with and start back from there. The shrinkage rate is the only thing that has changed.

This week we milled/sintered 4 arches THE EXACT SAME way in ZZ material and had NO issues. Milling a white peaks disk tonight for the full arch that warped last night.

How did white peaks turn out? What is your feedback with this zirconia?
 

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