VHF CAM 5-S1 Impression Vs Roland DWX-50

SpyGr

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Why someone to choose the 5 axes VHF instead of Roland DWX-50 ? Just for cutting metal only difference ? We all know that cutting metal it's much more expensive from the aspect of materials, consumables and damages of the machine . Also, I haven't heard any positive feedback about VHF machines. Please tell me your opinion about especially users who own VHF or know people who own them . I personally believe that Roland DWX-50 is top. Tell me your opinions
 
NicelyMKV

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The 5-S1 also cuts glass. Block prices will be dropping in certain situations, and may make it more worth while for some to mill it. 8 disc changer could come in handy with multiple material types and disc shades..
 
SpyGr

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Yeah but why to cut metal in your machine when you have many and cheaper options to produce to like torch casting , laser sintering etc . If you own a milling center yes it worths the cost but when you are a small lab and you can do anything with wax , pmma and zirconia cheaper than milling metal why then to buy a VHF cutting machine with a double or bigger price from Roland ? Give me some serious reasons
 
NicelyMKV

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Metal? You mean green state CoCr? I am talking about lithium Disilicate blocks.
 
Terry Whitty

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I think the two machines are nota fair comparison.
The DWX 50 excels at what it does...so what it does it does really well.

It can't cut metal and it can't cut glass, but again what it does.. it does well

So it would be fairer to compare two machines that do the same thing..maybe imes core and vhf

As for reasons... for metal

Laser sintering is a big investment.
Some people really want to cut metal so try and get in "on the cheap" so it probably does this ok, I don't really know so if you have one ..what do you think?
It mills other things as well so some people try and buy a "do all" machine which i don't think is the way to go, but may suit some labs.
A disk changer...Im not sure how useful it is unless you are cutting all the same material, going from metal to zirconia I believe needs a cleanup.

I think the multiple dedicated machine lab is the way to go.
 
eyeloveteeth

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laser sintering costs abotu $185k for the machine - but it's the alloy powder that is the problem. By the end of it all, it's totally not worth it.

And Terry is right...you will not want to mill wet metal and then try and do dry Zr... or worse...wet zr ::ugh::
 
Sevan P

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Roland DWX-50: DRY
ZR
PMMA
WAX
nanocomposites (If you have the proper tools and holder for the blocks, it is the same holder as e-max cad)

VHF 5axis: DRY/WET
ZR
PMMA
WAX
nanocomposites
glass ceramics
CrCo
Ti

DWX-50:
Belt Driven (everything including spindle)
Doesn't come with CAM software
Spindle can't provide a lot of torque (Brushless DC motor, maximum 100W)
External size 25.9 x 25.9 x 22
Built in Japan
6 tools MAX in holder
Weight 50kg
max disk height 98/100mm x 26mm with levels on disk 98/100mm x 20mm without levels on disk (center level ring 10mm)
mechanical touch off
Rotary Axis A: +/-360 degrees, B: +/-20 degrees


VHF 5Axis:
Screw Driven
Come with CAM
Jager Spindle, air driven much more torque provided
Will out Mill the Roland in life span
External size 5-S 20x18x21 no disk changer / 5-S2 27x18x21 with 8 disk auto changer
Built in Germany
16 tool in holder
Weight 75kg 5-s / 95kg 5-s2
Max disk height 98mm x 30mm
mechanical touch off
Rotary Axis A: +/-360 degrees, B: +/-30 degrees
Repetition accuracy +/- 0.003mm

Both will cut the same, the VFH will be slightly more accurate due to screw drive train. Imagine the VHF as a uber small version of the iMes iCore machines, they are built the same but on a smaller scale. The iMes iCore machine are built to cut CrCo and Ti for a much longer span of time, but the VHF 5axis wet mill will cut CrCo and Ti but not really meant for long cutting times like a full disk worth repeatedly. I have two VHF 4axis mills and they are work horses, one is running the v4 cam software and the other is running the v5 software, the software that is going to be on the 5axis wet mill. Yes I have issues running certain burs on the v4 mill and have stuck to cutting only wax and use the sierra razor sharp burs only and never change them. My V5 mill can run the sierra diamond coated burs both 1mm and 2mm with no issues, the mill have the upgraded current chip for the electronic touch off. The major issue with my V4 mill that I made a huge fuss over on here.

But the newer 5axis mill has the mechanical touch off like the DWX-50 so no more tool crashing due to un-compatible tools. in the end they both will give you the result you are looking for. If you want to cut a fewabutments in house and don't have the money or the room for the Imes 450i or Datron D5 the the new VHF 5 axis mill is going to the right mill for you. The DWX-50 is a great mill for ZR/WAX & PMMA but your done right there. The VHF 5-S/5-S2 gives your much more milling options a better built mill and a CAM software that is more then enough for most of the labs that purchase the machines and have no clue on the depths of CAM software. I can CAM a full disk of ZR or WAX in less then 15min and have the mill start cutting on the V4 software but the newer V5 software I need to let the CAM get the fist 1/3 processed before starting the mill. Sum3D for the DWX-50 can either be a easy 1-2-3 process or open it up and have all the options play around and mess things up if you have no clue what your doing, it is a good piece of software but once again for most labs that purchase it, it is way too much cam and they barely use a fraction of it's power.

This is my experience cause I have personally worked on a DWX-50, iMes iCore 340i and the VHF 4Axis miss, the 5Axid is going to be launched very soon. We will pick up on of the VHF-5-S or 5-S2 once available and now have three mills in operation, 2 x 4 axis and one 5 axis.

DWX-50 specs

VHF-5-S/5-S2 specs

Sevan
 
Terry Whitty

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Thanks for the comparison... a fair one at that too.
 
Sevan P

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Its only fair to show how unfair it is to compare the two mills.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
T

taki

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Roland DWX-50: DRY
ZR
PMMA
WAX
nanocomposites (If you have the proper tools and holder for the blocks, it is the same holder as e-max cad)

VHF 5axis: DRY/WET
ZR
PMMA
WAX
nanocomposites
glass ceramics
CrCo
Ti

DWX-50:
Belt Driven (everything including spindle)
Doesn't come with CAM software
Spindle can't provide a lot of torque (Brushless DC motor, maximum 100W)
External size 25.9 x 25.9 x 22
Built in Japan
6 tools MAX in holder
Weight 50kg
max disk height 98/100mm x 26mm with levels on disk 98/100mm x 20mm without levels on disk (center level ring 10mm)
mechanical touch off
Rotary Axis A: +/-360 degrees, B: +/-20 degrees


VHF 5Axis:
Screw Driven
Come with CAM
Jager Spindle, air driven much more torque provided
Will out Mill the Roland in life span
External size 5-S 20x18x21 no disk changer / 5-S2 27x18x21 with 8 disk auto changer
Built in Germany
16 tool in holder
Weight 75kg 5-s / 95kg 5-s2
Max disk height 98mm x 30mm
mechanical touch off
Rotary Axis A: +/-360 degrees, B: +/-30 degrees
Repetition accuracy +/- 0.003mm

Both will cut the same, the VFH will be slightly more accurate due to screw drive train. Imagine the VHF as a uber small version of the iMes iCore machines, they are built the same but on a smaller scale. The iMes iCore machine are built to cut CrCo and Ti for a much longer span of time, but the VHF 5axis wet mill will cut CrCo and Ti but not really meant for long cutting times like a full disk worth repeatedly. I have two VHF 4axis mills and they are work horses, one is running the v4 cam software and the other is running the v5 software, the software that is going to be on the 5axis wet mill. Yes I have issues running certain burs on the v4 mill and have stuck to cutting only wax and use the sierra razor sharp burs only and never change them. My V5 mill can run the sierra diamond coated burs both 1mm and 2mm with no issues, the mill have the upgraded current chip for the electronic touch off. The major issue with my V4 mill that I made a huge fuss over on here.

But the newer 5axis mill has the mechanical touch off like the DWX-50 so no more tool crashing due to un-compatible tools. in the end they both will give you the result you are looking for. If you want to cut a fewabutments in house and don't have the money or the room for the Imes 450i or Datron D5 the the new VHF 5 axis mill is going to the right mill for you. The DWX-50 is a great mill for ZR/WAX & PMMA but your done right there. The VHF 5-S/5-S2 gives your much more milling options a better built mill and a CAM software that is more then enough for most of the labs that purchase the machines and have no clue on the depths of CAM software. I can CAM a full disk of ZR or WAX in less then 15min and have the mill start cutting on the V4 software but the newer V5 software I need to let the CAM get the fist 1/3 processed before starting the mill. Sum3D for the DWX-50 can either be a easy 1-2-3 process or open it up and have all the options play around and mess things up if you have no clue what your doing, it is a good piece of software but once again for most labs that purchase it, it is way too much cam and they barely use a fraction of it's power.

This is my experience cause I have personally worked on a DWX-50, iMes iCore 340i and the VHF 4Axis miss, the 5Axid is going to be launched very soon. We will pick up on of the VHF-5-S or 5-S2 once available and now have three mills in operation, 2 x 4 axis and one 5 axis.

DWX-50 specs

VHF-5-S/5-S2 specs

Sevan

Sevan is absolutely right! Just to add that the VHFs are CNC machines while Rolands aren't. Also VHFs mill CrCo with dry milling and wet grind the e-max (and others alike) blocks. No wet to dry from CrCo to Zr, so no need to clean anything. So there are many reasons one to pick VHF instead of Roland!
 
SpyGr

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DMC

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Roland is not a CNC machine!
It is closer to a paper printer for $99 that I have sitting on my desk.
No real CNC frame, no precision rail system, 5hit even my HP paper printer has linear encoder strip where as the Roland does not! LOL




- To "grind" on ceramics with diamonds requires tool radius measurement.
Either with Laser or by touch. Like the KaVo has.
Not just simple "POKE" on a button Z-offset only measurement.
I think I am upgrading both my HAAS mills to a German laser system in the next Three months.

Laser_Nano_01.png


- To mill metal with all the proper tooling, and to get decent tool-life.....you NEED Industrial tooling solution.
Not baby spindle with just One collet and drawbar.
Far superior T.I.R., ability to use Standard(Imperial) and Metric tools at same time in wide range of shank sizes, longer tool life and results are more accurate.

ISO20_ER16_300.jpg
 
T

taki

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Roland are CNC machines ............. maybe you must read better your notes

http://www.rolanddga.com/products/milling/

If they are not CNC machines as you say why then WHIP MIX offers milling services to dental laboratories with a Roland DWX-50 ?

http://www.dentalproductsreport.com/lab/article/whip-mixs-new-plan-help-labs-meet-digital-demand


Also if they are not CNC machines why then CAP USA offers milling services also with 3 ROLAND DWX-50 ?

Maybe they dont want CNC machines..............o_O

I don't know why these 2 companies choosed Roland, i know that i can clearly state which CNC controller the VHFs utilize (can you inform us which one the Rolands utilize?) and i definetly know that there are many well respected companies that adopted VHFs in their CAD/CAM product lines with different names and housings, like the followings:

http://www.wieland-dental.de/en/products/zenotec/milling-machines/
http://www.schuetz-dental.de/tl_files/content/epapers/2013/en_tizian/index.html#/4
http://www.zfx-dental.com/en/zfx-mill-inhouse
http://www.fino.com/index.php?id=43&L=1
http://goldquadrat.de/Website/index.php?id=631
http://www.glidewelldental.com/lab/cad-cam-systems/index.aspx?Header=0
https://www.shera.de/en/silver.econtent/catalog/Shera/SHERAdigital/Geraete/Fraesgeraete
and others as well.....

And at the end of the day VHFs can dry mill metal (CrCo) plus (in S series) the wet grinding of Lithium Disilicate (e-max) blocks and other materials which need cooling as well (and Vita, Dentsply, Ivoclar etc come out with a lot of such materials in blocks),something that Rolands can't do!
No offense but although Roland DWX-50 (and only this) is a good machine and does well what it does it cannot be compared with VHF's S series, it's just not fair for Roland. It does not offer the wider range of materials and indications that a VHF S series does and does it perfectly, with a proven long life span and return of investment!
http://www.vhf.eu/en/Machines/BasicSystems/ImpressionDental
;)
 
cadfan

cadfan

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They all choose VHF because no other mill with that profit marge is that time available so roland too both sold only by resellers .So if they sell an imes they got problems because they sell direct to customer too. Their is no other small mill in germany they can sell !!!!!!!!!!!!!! so all sell vhf but a few sell real mills from i mes.
 
3DCAM

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What is the CrCo?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N915A using Tapatalk
 
A

Alex Sever

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I am looking to buy a vhf s1. Also looking at the amann girrbach motion 2 or imes icore 250. Could you please advise?
Thank you!
 
R

rookiee

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Roland DWX-50: DRY
ZR
PMMA
WAX
nanocomposites (If you have the proper tools and holder for the blocks, it is the same holder as e-max cad)

VHF 5axis: DRY/WET
ZR
PMMA
WAX
nanocomposites
glass ceramics
CrCo
Ti

DWX-50:
Belt Driven (everything including spindle)
Doesn't come with CAM software
Spindle can't provide a lot of torque (Brushless DC motor, maximum 100W)
External size 25.9 x 25.9 x 22
Built in Japan
6 tools MAX in holder
Weight 50kg
max disk height 98/100mm x 26mm with levels on disk 98/100mm x 20mm without levels on disk (center level ring 10mm)
mechanical touch off
Rotary Axis A: +/-360 degrees, B: +/-20 degrees


VHF 5Axis:
Screw Driven
Come with CAM
Jager Spindle, air driven much more torque provided
Will out Mill the Roland in life span
External size 5-S 20x18x21 no disk changer / 5-S2 27x18x21 with 8 disk auto changer
Built in Germany
16 tool in holder
Weight 75kg 5-s / 95kg 5-s2
Max disk height 98mm x 30mm
mechanical touch off
Rotary Axis A: +/-360 degrees, B: +/-30 degrees
Repetition accuracy +/- 0.003mm

Both will cut the same, the VFH will be slightly more accurate due to screw drive train. Imagine the VHF as a uber small version of the iMes iCore machines, they are built the same but on a smaller scale. The iMes iCore machine are built to cut CrCo and Ti for a much longer span of time, but the VHF 5axis wet mill will cut CrCo and Ti but not really meant for long cutting times like a full disk worth repeatedly. I have two VHF 4axis mills and they are work horses, one is running the v4 cam software and the other is running the v5 software, the software that is going to be on the 5axis wet mill. Yes I have issues running certain burs on the v4 mill and have stuck to cutting only wax and use the sierra razor sharp burs only and never change them. My V5 mill can run the sierra diamond coated burs both 1mm and 2mm with no issues, the mill have the upgraded current chip for the electronic touch off. The major issue with my V4 mill that I made a huge fuss over on here.

But the newer 5axis mill has the mechanical touch off like the DWX-50 so no more tool crashing due to un-compatible tools. in the end they both will give you the result you are looking for. If you want to cut a fewabutments in house and don't have the money or the room for the Imes 450i or Datron D5 the the new VHF 5 axis mill is going to the right mill for you. The DWX-50 is a great mill for ZR/WAX & PMMA but your done right there. The VHF 5-S/5-S2 gives your much more milling options a better built mill and a CAM software that is more then enough for most of the labs that purchase the machines and have no clue on the depths of CAM software. I can CAM a full disk of ZR or WAX in less then 15min and have the mill start cutting on the V4 software but the newer V5 software I need to let the CAM get the fist 1/3 processed before starting the mill. Sum3D for the DWX-50 can either be a easy 1-2-3 process or open it up and have all the options play around and mess things up if you have no clue what your doing, it is a good piece of software but once again for most labs that purchase it, it is way too much cam and they barely use a fraction of it's power.

This is my experience cause I have personally worked on a DWX-50, iMes iCore 340i and the VHF 4Axis miss, the 5Axid is going to be launched very soon. We will pick up on of the VHF-5-S or 5-S2 once available and now have three mills in operation, 2 x 4 axis and one 5 axis.

DWX-50 specs

VHF-5-S/5-S2 specs

Sevan


For Roland you're wrong.Ups, sorry I seen we're talking about 50d model. Sorry
Rotary axis travel angle

A axis ±360°
B axis ±30°
 

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