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Thanks for looking at that. Yeah with SUM3D while importing your crown I can manually set an offset, which I put at 2.5. I'll have to go in and change the other things. What happend was this was all set up me during install, then my pc crashed and had to re-install everything. Since I have no clue really what I'm doing when it comes to tool strategy and whatever I probably missed a few steps. Thanks a bunch Scott.

When you get it somewhat workable 99%...then you should copy your SUM3D folder somewhere safe!

You are welcome to upload it to my ftp site. It can be just another place as back-up.

Or even install on second computer, and just swap dongle and back in business!

I would lower the .3 oversize on all roughing to half that value.
 
shane williams

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Found it.

In your Second External Roughing operation (tilted bridge),your oversize (.3) is too much at that angle for your offset parameter on importing of element.

The Roughing tool does not complete the removal of alot of material for one bridge. The 2mm Ball-mill won't fit between the wall of wax and the tooth with your parameters you have now.


You have Two choices.

One, reduce the extra material (oversize) from .03 to maybe .01 in the Roughin operation.

The other option is to increase your offset from 2.?? you have to 2.?? (+.3mm)


You have very course roughing operation (2mm z-step and 60% stepover),followed by only a 1mm tool to do all rest.
You are leaving .03 extra material, but at such a course step, you are leaving big chunks of material all over the place for the little 1mm to remove in One fast swipe.

It is a little hard on the 1mm, even with wax. I would imagine you are bending the tool, or flexing the actual wax and loosing accuracy.

I would very much not do this. I would add in a 2mm finishing, then go to 1mm for specific areas only.



Other than that...I see many many other things I would change.

What do you recommend I change the 60% stepover to?
 
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There are many factors, but if you are going to just do roughing with 2mm, then go right to finishing with a 1mm, then I would do 40% stepover for roughing with a 1mm Z-step with maybe only .1mm oversize.

This leaves much less material for the little 1mm to come and clean-up for your Second/final operation.

This may work OK for wax, but I would not do this for Zirconia.
 
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Is there an online forum dedicated to sum3D somewhere? I would like more detailed info. I'm new to it and would like to research what it can do.

Thanks,
Jason
 
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right here....

Unless you speak Italian.

It is super complicated IMO, if you really want to get into it DEEP.

Very hard to discuss on the net without passing back and fourth CAM files.
 
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Macron Dental Lab

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Is there an online forum dedicated to sum3D somewhere? I would like more detailed info. I'm new to it and would like to research what it can do.

Thanks,
Jason

Well can be learn, now not so easy to understand but if you like hard challenges then Toolpath Strategies and post processor integration is for you.
 
Macron Dental Lab

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There are many factors, but if you are going to just do roughing with 2mm, then go right to finishing with a 1mm, then I would do 40% stepover for roughing with a 1mm Z-step with maybe only .1mm oversize.

This leaves much less material for the little 1mm to come and clean-up for your Second/final operation.

This may work OK for wax, but I would not do this for Zirconia.



The tool perform best when the chip thickness proceeds from thick to thin as the cutting edge moves. That way, cutting force is released gradually instead of suddenly. This is the reason to favor climb milling over conventional milling. For this same reason, the tool should not proceed into the material in a straight line. It should “roll” into the cut instead.
 
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aupload.wikimedia.org_wikipedia_commons_thumb_8_83_Climb_Milling_01.png_300px_Climb_Milling_01.png


aupload.wikimedia.org_wikipedia_commons_thumb_4_41_Conventiona259d9b8d98387d798d9d4750921cc39d.png


I can talk about Climb-Milling vs./ Down-milling and Bi-Directional all day long.
aupload.wikimedia.org_wikipedia_commons_thumb_8_83_Climb_Milling_01.png_300px_Climb_Milling_01.png aupload.wikimedia.org_wikipedia_commons_thumb_4_41_Conventiona259d9b8d98387d798d9d4750921cc39d.png
 
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Climb-Milling is for strong mills and tools. Maybe not the Roland! LOL

It is the same as trying to use handpiece pushing away from you (impossible because your hands are not strong enough to counter-act the bur wanting to pull away from you and roll over the surface. You are not in control of the tool. Everyone uses handpiece in a pulling direction towards the operator. This is Down milling and easier for weak mills.

Climb-milling also increases the tendency for tool deflection and flexing of both tool, workpiece holder, frame of mill, and the actual material being cut.
 
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aupload.wikimedia.org_wikipedia_commons_thumb_8_83_Climb_Milling_01.png_300px_Climb_Milling_01.png


aupload.wikimedia.org_wikipedia_commons_thumb_4_41_Conventiona259d9b8d98387d798d9d4750921cc39d.png


I can talk about Climb-Milling vs./ Down-milling and Bi-Directional all day long.
Most people do NOT use Climb-milling for finishing of Wax.

Your internal spiral will be Down-milling in a Clock-wise direction. It leaves the best surface finish.

You have a clear idea of the process.
aupload.wikimedia.org_wikipedia_commons_thumb_8_83_Climb_Milling_01.png_300px_Climb_Milling_01.png aupload.wikimedia.org_wikipedia_commons_thumb_4_41_Conventiona259d9b8d98387d798d9d4750921cc39d.png
 
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Chip formation......
Although there are many different types of milling cutter, understanding chip formation is fundamental to the use of any of them. As the milling cutter rotates, the material to be cut is fed into it, and each tooth of the cutter cuts away a small chip of material. Achieving the correct size of chip is of critical importance. The size of this chip depends on several variables.

Surface cutting speed (Vc): This is the speed at which each tooth cuts through the material as the tool spins. This is measured either in metres per minute in metric countries, or surface feet per minute (SFM) in America. Typical values for cutting speed are 10m/min to 60m/min for some steels, and 100m/min and 600m/min for aluminum. This should not be confused with the feed rate.
Spindle speed (S): This is the rotation speed of the tool, and is measured in revolutions per minute (rpm). Typical values are from hundreds of rpm, up to tens of thousands of rpm.
Diameter of the tool (D):
Feed per tooth (Fz): This is the distance the material is fed into the cutter as each tooth rotates. This value is the size of the deepest cut the tooth will make.
Feed rate (F): This is the speed at which the material is fed into the cutter. Typical values are from 20mm/min to 5000mm/min.
Depth of cut: This is how deep the tool is under the surface of the material being cut (not shown on the diagram). This will be the height of the chip produced. Typically, the depth of cut will be less than or equal to the diameter of the cutting tool.
The machinist needs three values: S, F and Depth when deciding how to cut a new material with a new tool. However, he will probably be given values of Vc and Fz from the tool manufacturer. S and F can be calculated from them:

Spindle Speed Feed rate

Looking at the formula for the spindle speed, S, it can be seen that larger tools require lower spindle speeds, while small tools may be able to go at high speeds. The formula for the feed rate, F shows that increasing S or z gives a higher feed rate. Therefore, machinists may choose a tool with the highest number of teeth that can still cope with the swarf load.

[edit] Conventional milling versus climb milling
Conventional milling. Point A may become work hardened.
Chip formation during climb milling.A milling cutter can cut in two directions, sometimes known as conventional or up and climb or down.

Conventional milling (left): The chip thickness starts at zero thickness, and increases up to the maximum. The cut is so light at the beginning that the tool does not cut, but slides across the surface of the material, until sufficient pressure is built up and the tooth suddenly bites and begins to cut. This deforms the material (at point A on the diagram, left),work hardening it, and dulling the tool. The sliding and biting behaviour leaves a poor finish on the material.
Climb milling (right): Each tooth engages the material at a definite point, and the width of the cut starts at the maximum and decreases to zero. The chips are disposed behind the cutter, leading to easier swarf removal. The tooth does not rub on the material, and so tool life may be longer. However, climb milling can apply larger loads to the machine, and so is not recommended for older milling machines, or machines which are not in good condition. This type of milling is used predominantly on mills with a backlash eliminator.[edit] Swarf removalAnother important quality of the milling cutter to consider is its ability to deal with the swarf generated by the cutting process. If the swarf is not removed as fast as it is produced, the flutes will clog and prevent the tool cutting efficiently, causing vibration, tool wear and overheating. Several factors affect swarf removal, including the depth and angle of the flutes, the size and shape of the chips, the flow of coolant, and the surrounding material. It may be difficult to predict, but a good machinist will watch out for swarf build up, and adjust the milling conditions if it is observed.

[edit] Selecting a milling cutterSelecting a milling cutter is not a simple task. There are many variables, opinions and lore to consider, but essentially the machinist is trying to choose a tool which will cut the material to the required specification for the least cost. The cost of the job is a combination of the price of the tool, the time taken by the milling machine, and the time taken by the machinist. Often, for jobs of a large number of parts, and days of machining time, the cost of the tool is
 
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You need fancy CNC controler integrated with nice Spindle/Spindle controler and axis motors to realize the full potential of Climb-Milling. It takes up space and cost money. I can't see that stuff being incorperated into smaller mills.

The Boxes that control my motors are almost larger than a Roland when stacked up. This is not the main CNC controler, but just the extra axis drive boxes and spindle controler. There is a reason it is there. It has to be big, and lots of wires for constant I/O to determine the load on all axis and the main spindle. The CNC controler will make constant adjustments to feed-rate and other parameters to prevent poor results. It is overide your request in the CAM thousands of times during a milling cycle and do whats right for the mechanics and physics of the situation, thus saving my as5. That is the beauty of High quality CNC Controler. More Idiot-proof! LOL

It needs to detect many things the Roland will not.

The Roland has no idea how fast the tool is spinning.

Is the belt slipping? Who knows? I can assure you the spindle has no load feedback. It may know the speed of the motor, but NOT the tool. It also does not know how much load the motor needs, and how hard it is working.

Not for that money. I can be sloppy in my CAM and rely on my mill's CNC controler to prevent 5hit results.

You guys need to be extra careful in your CAM and milling strategy because you have mill that just tries to do what it's told.....it does not think for itself very good.


Sum3d can be tweeked out to give great results! That's the good news!

Sooooo many parameters can be adjusted for all aspects of milling for your mill.
Different than what I would do.

Scott
 
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Climb-Milling increases tool life, by not scuffing the surface and actually bending the material before the flute actually grabs and begins to cut.

Instead...It takes a big bite right from the beginning and then the chip gets thinner down to nothing as tool moves forward. This is much more force being applied to the mill's frame and axis motors and such vs. Down-milling. You need very strong mill to control the tool. Has to do with Physics, or some crap like that? LOL

Down-milling (A.K.A. Conventional-milling) will make more heat and reduce tool-life.....but makes better surface finish for some situations, like the final finishing of a polished Metal surface (Full cast crown). Almost like swaging metal or work-harding a material. It is easier on the mill and forces are reduces. (Good for the Roland and other desk-top mills)

Maybe not too good in some instances.

ex. For bulk-milling of metals, I would only use Climb-milling. Otherwise, I'd go broke in buying tools.

Maybe I would switch to Conventional for occlusal surface of Full cast, or maybe the internal spiral finishing/.
 
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This is all B.S. from my personal experience.

I am High-School Drop-out!

Don't listen to me.

Maybe an "expert" will step in and clear up some things if I am wrong.

Anyone??
 
Macron Dental Lab

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Climb-Milling is for strong mills and tools. Maybe not the Roland! LOL

It is the same as trying to use handpiece pushing away from you (impossible because your hands are not strong enough to counter-act the bur wanting to pull away from you and roll over the surface. You are not in control of the tool. Everyone uses handpiece in a pulling direction towards the operator. This is Down milling and easier for weak mills.

Climb-milling also increases the tendency for tool deflection and flexing of both tool, workpiece holder, frame of mill, and the actual material being cut.

I'm speaking about the general concept in the milling process not the capacity of the Roland or any mill and If you pay $$$$ you should get a dental cam soft that work out of the box not braking tools but making great dental pieces.
 
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I play with custom stuff that I make myself. (Yokes and fixtures.....waaaay outside the box)

Sure, I break tools, but I have learned quite a bit! It was all human error, and not fault of Sum3D.

This happens when you teach Twenty Year old son and employees Five axis open CAM, and making your own system from scratch.

We break many tools, as I told you, but I think we mill 4x the amout for much longer period of time than you, so not exactly Apples to Apples, eh? I have seen almost all types of failures from CAD aspect to mechanical on many many 3d printers and cnc mills, and can identify them fast and correct. It is a good skill to have.


I accept my failure, and what we learned. I do not regret any of it.

All of my stuff is still running fine, and I fixed it all myself. Good stuff! Happy Happy!

Scott
 
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