Porcelain Fused Zirconia

[Ken Knapp]

How many labs are still offering porcelain fused to zirconia?

Some anterior and premolar cases need porcelain incisal edge for esthetics that FCZ with facial porcelain cannot achieve.

How is the porcelain fracture rate for PFZ cases?

Ken

 

[rkm rdt]

Overhyped

 

[kimba]

I still do PFZr. Have been doing it for over 10 years now , since Lava. ( so closer to 15 ?) I have not had reported to me , by long term clients who are not shy, any significant difference to PFM. I truly believe that the vast majority of porcelain failure in PFZr is due to poor framework design and incorrect firing protocol.

 

[rkm rdt]

 

[rkm rdt]

All my anterior crowns are pfz.

 

[adl]

I still do a lot of them , all the anteriors and still a fair amount in the posterior areas.No issues.

 

[sndmn2]

All my z anterior stuff is layered.

 

[BobCDT]

Great topic. Unless you are trying to match a single anterior no need to layer. The multi layered discs are more esthetic than many layered crowns.
Not to mention strength.

 

[adl]

Great topic. Unless you are trying to match a single anterior no need to layer. The multi layered discs are more esthetic than many layered crowns.
Not to mention strength.

Well layered crowns are much more esthetic than the multi layered discs.

 

[user name]

Welll...

The newer Zrs are pretty, but just as they don't all look the same, theres not one that's going to work in all cases. I do quite a few FCZ in the anterior now, but that's depending on what I see. Sometimes I can get one of mine (3) that I use to be a decent match, but Ive got to see the patient to know the subtleties of what Im trying to match. I can do a minimal layer to get some extra effects (and extra money),but its usually my bottle of clear Im reaching for.

I still have some that prescribe e.max, but knowing my accounts, that doesn't mean LD. Theyre saying they are willing to pay and want the max in esthetics. that's when I get razor sharp margins with my Zr frames and wax-n-press some e.max on it. ZirPress that is. Its a dance. I have tools to meet the job. I just knocked the socks off a Dr and his pt with a fullZr anterior bridge. 'Perfect" I believe was the word. There was nothing more I could have done with glass. It matched.

If you don't get to see the patient and the Dr asks for A-2 on every case, then how muck work are you going to do to get it to match...What? You know that most shades aren't actually what you would have selected had you seen the patient.

 

[labtek]

Welll...

The newer Zrs are pretty, but just as they don't all look the same, theres not one that's going to work in all cases. I do quite a few FCZ in the anterior now, but that's depending on what I see. Sometimes I can get one of mine (3) that I use to be a decent match, but Ive got to see the patient to know the subtleties of what Im trying to match. I can do a minimal layer to get some extra effects (and extra money),but its usually my bottle of clear Im reaching for.

I still have some that prescribe e.max, but knowing my accounts, that doesn't mean LD. Theyre saying they are willing to pay and want the max in esthetics. that's when I get razor sharp margins with my Zr frames and wax-n-press some e.max on it. ZirPress that is. Its a dance. I have tools to meet the job. I just knocked the socks off a Dr and his pt with a fullZr anterior bridge. 'Perfect" I believe was the word. There was nothing more I could have done with glass. It matched.

If you don't get to see the patient and the Dr asks for A-2 on every case, then how muck work are you going to do to get it to match...What? You know that most shades aren't actually what you would have selected had you seen the patient.

Great job on your zirconias, what are the 3 zirconias that you are using for those decent matches? and what was the zr you used on the perfect bridge?

 

[sndmn2]

I have been designing for only two years. I built my first PFM 40 years ago come August. I for one just dont have the design skills to match my hand skills and I dought I ever will. I see some of the full ant. design work that others do and it looks fantastic. I"m just not there yet. I have an idea what I want I just cant relate it to a flat screen.I need a good course on large case design. A step by step procedural process maybe.

 

[BobCDT]

I have been designing for only two years. I built my first PFM 40 years ago come August. I for one just dont have the design skills to match my hand skills and I dought I ever will. I see some of the full ant. design work that others do and it looks fantastic. I"m just not there yet. I have an idea what I want I just cant relate it to a flat screen.I need a good course on large case design. A step by step procedural process maybe.

Generally speaking, if you have a few really good or gret anatomic libraries it makes it easier. I find you can go too far, too many mouse clicks with design and the design quality starts to downhill.

 

[BobCDT]

Well layered crowns are much more esthetic than the multi layered discs.

Tes, I would agree to a point. That said, the new multi-layered materials are really looking good. Here is a case we did with Zolid FX Muli. Designed, sintered S&G. There was some shaping done in the green state. NO powders at all, no green state colorants either. Can a high-end ceramist do better, yes. But I would suggest the vast majority of ceramists will not get a much-improved result with powders.

 

[CatamountRob]

Tes, I would agree to a point. That said, the new multi-layered materials are really looking good. Here is a case we did with Zolid FX Muli. Designed, sintered S&G. There was some shaping done in the green state. NO powders at all, no green state colorants either. Can a high-end ceramist do better, yes. But I would suggest the vast majority of ceramists will not get a much-improved result with powders.
View attachment 26287

That does look nice Bob, but it's easy to do a 6-11 case. In most people's world single crowns or short bridges are the rule and there's a difference between looking good and matching.
Again, that bridge is very nice.

 

[PDC]

I have been designing for only two years. I built my first PFM 40 years ago come August. I for one just dont have the design skills to match my hand skills and I dought I ever will. I see some of the full ant. design work that others do and it looks fantastic. I"m just not there yet. I have an idea what I want I just cant relate it to a flat screen.I need a good course on large case design. A step by step procedural process maybe.

I can relate to your struggle. Even though I have been designing a lot longer than 2 years it's still tough on the large anterior cases. Although the proposals are a definite time saver, I find that a lot of that time has to be used correcting contours which we could have avoided building up by hand.
For us older techs, I think if we had been doing digital from the beginning it would have been a lot easier.

In the end though, digital has been much more profitable. Just like anything else, your skills in the digital world will only improve as time goes on.

 

[BobCDT]

That does look nice Bob, but it's easy to do a 6-11 case. In most people's world single crowns or short bridges are the rule and there's a difference between looking good and matching.
Again, that bridge is very nice.

Yes, I had mentioned earlier in the thread, single units or matching a central would, in most cases be best served by layering or micro-layering.

 

[PDC]

Welll...

The newer Zrs are pretty, but just as they don't all look the same, theres not one that's going to work in all cases. I do quite a few FCZ in the anterior now, but that's depending on what I see. Sometimes I can get one of mine (3) that I use to be a decent match, but Ive got to see the patient to know the subtleties of what Im trying to match. I can do a minimal layer to get some extra effects (and extra money),but its usually my bottle of clear Im reaching for.

I still have some that prescribe e.max, but knowing my accounts, that doesn't mean LD. Theyre saying they are willing to pay and want the max in esthetics. that's when I get razor sharp margins with my Zr frames and wax-n-press some e.max on it. ZirPress that is. Its a dance. I have tools to meet the job. I just knocked the socks off a Dr and his pt with a fullZr anterior bridge. 'Perfect" I believe was the word. There was nothing more I could have done with glass. It matched.

I gotta agree with User. The doctors love the layered stuff, Emax or zirconia, but for most, if they can avoid the extra costs involved with layering, they will. I think a lot it depends on patient expectations as well as costs.

Personally. I would prefer Emax for single units if I needed crowns and a layered bridge if I needed that. I just feel that over time that glazed surface on FCZ is not going to hold up after several cleanings using a prophy cup and pumice. At least with Emax you can polish the surface and still have a consistent look. Not so once you go through the glaze on zirconia.

 

[grantoz]

sorry pdc once you go thru the glaze on emax its worse than zi it gets rough and holds all kinds of bugs.also consider the glaze for emax is quite similar to the glaze for zi and a lot of techs use the same glaze for both.

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

we still do PFZ, but charge appropriately for that labor.
so, most often clients request full contour. especially for posteriors or multi unit anterior cases.