Nobel scanner and sofware.

[ceram1]

I was recently given an enticing quote and per abutment cost that seemed very good from my nobel rep. I was hoping someone who is a user could give me a honest review of the software and scanner. Our lab is restoring a fair amount of these cases and our margin using Atlantis is poor. I am going to make a change one way or another to improve turnaround and add to our take on these cases. Any shared experiences will be appreciated.

 

[Bobby Orr ceramics]

we have the Optimet scanner from Nobel. We really like it for the abutments. However, for eMax and zirconia stuff we find the scanning time is very slow compared to what we can do with 3Shape's D700 for scanning time and software abilites. IMO

 

[ceram1]

we have the Optimet scanner from Nobel. We really like it for the abutments. However, for eMax and zirconia stuff we find the scanning time is very slow compared to what we can do with 3Shape's D700 for scanning time and software abilites. IMO

do you ever create bars or substructures?

 

[Jo Chen]

Implant bar design is adequate for everyday cases. Nothing like DMCs cases but a lot less headache and more profitable.

What is the Nobel rep going to do for you besides selling you the scanner? How many programs is he hosting on your behalf and how many potential new clients is he going to introduce you to? How fast will you be able to amortize the scanner?

 

[RJS8669]

I'll sell you mine. Make an offer.

 

[primus]

Better price than $79 per abutment??

If not...then it's not an amazing price at all.

We change that. No strings attached.

exocad is the prefered CAD to use now for implants and bars.

Scanner and Alienware ALX Liquid-cooled PC, w/exocad and implant module is $20,500.

Fully open. No yearly fees.

Scott

 

[Bobby Orr ceramics]

do you ever create bars or substructures?

Yes, bars are awesome!! forgot to mention that.

Also, Nobel's support is great !!! at least here in BC.

 

[JohnWilson]

Its been a very good investment for us, however I have a very good relationship with my reps. I have had every scanner they have produced aside from the Mod40. I get very high quality FDA approved abutments that are consistent and with a warranty from a company that I know will be here when I need it.

This scanner took my production of custom abutments to the next level, with that being said when they open up the software to use 3shape it will be interesting to see which scanner I will utilize more.

I can't say anything bad about noble at all.

Good luck with your decision

 

[ceram1]

Thanks for all your input, we will be deciding what to do in the near future. I am looking to take advantage of abutments, bars, and implant subs. I have no need for their zr or emax we do that all in house now. My area is heavily saturated in Nobel, and the surgeons we work with would like us to take our involvement to the next level. They are offering the scanner and software for a little over 23 and that includes pc monitor and nobel clinician witch for us is a major missing link for full involvement in all on four ect. this includes training and as John mentioned we will be at the table and supported at study clubs and continuing eds in our region. That to me has a fair amount of value. Eric

 

[rkm rdt]

:whoo:John's going to show us how to design an IZIR bridge with a Picollo

 

[RJS8669]

Seriously - I'll sell you mine...

 

[Beatrice]

Bar WAS Amazing

Try our solution no investment for better quality.
To remember that I have invented the Bar software that you use everyday with Nobel.

But now with my new company Panthera we have made the existing bar product into a new category of high-end solution.

Contact me if you want to know more about bars. And we are coming with out abutment solution in few month (2-3) compatible with Dental Wings and 3Shape.

I will be in Chicago (no booth) so if one of you guys wanna meet me feel free to send me a PM and It will be a pleasure to meet you.

Best regards
www.pantheradental.com

 

[ceram1]

Seriously - I'll sell you mine...

How old, up to date and why do you want out?

 

[RJS8669]

Three years - barely used. Up-to date. I'm just not a fan of the scanner - very slow. And, I'm just used to 3Shape - more intuitive to me, but that may be because its what I learned on. I'm not actively looking to sell it because we are starting to get a little All-on-4 business, but if the right offer came along...

 

[paulg100]

"I'm not actively looking to sell it because we are starting to get a little All-on-4 business"

you realize you can get the same bars & same quality for waaaaaay less elsewhere.

Been using biomet 3i for my all on 4 cases, there about £150 a bar cheaper than nobel for a simple wrap around, and the quality/fit is awesome (and im very picky). I just send em the model and wax up and the bar design's have been spot on so far (and im very picky when it comes to designs). So as well as saving the cost on the bar, it also saves me the labour time designing and scanning em as well

So i have to send em the model & wax up... well that means i loose 1 day over scanning designing myself inhouse, which is nothing.

Also there are even better options from places like biomaine who are now doing angled screws up to 20 degrees which is awesome.





Even if i had Nobels scanner.... id still be sending em to biomet. Wouldn't make any sense not to.

Problem is when youve laid out a lot of money on equipment its human nature to want to use it.. even if it dosent make any sense.

 

[RJS8669]

I hear you. My problem is Nobel has done a good job here of promoting the idea of "Authentic" interfaces. Its a battle I have neither the time or energy to fight....

 

[paulg100]

"promoting the idea of "Authentic" interfaces"

me brothers about to start a research paper for his MSc in implantology (specialist clinical qualification in the UK),his chosen implant related cad/cam as the subject

no doubt ill be asked to help out in some way so it will be interesting to see what facts and figures we unearth and how valid this whole "athentic interfaces" argument really is.

Im pretty sure that the percentage of cases that fail due to actual implant failure (induced by the overlying prosthetic) is very small so that would make the whole argument rather weak. Thats not an evidence based opinion though so maybe this will change once me brother gets his teeth into the research.

 

[JohnWilson]

Paul,

You make some valid points about use machines you have invested in. I am a little different than some I just don't purchase any piece of equipment that I know I can't make a predictable ROI in a specific amount of time.

The quality of the bar from some of the other manufactures in my opinion do not measure up to what nobel can offer. I am not talking about full wrap bars like the one you showed, truthfully any decent mill should be able to produce those types of restorations. Its the more sophisticated bar designs.

As for the bar you posted the fact that it has very little dista cant. is great but the cross section of the notches seem to put a weak point to the bar. Perhaps the picture is misleading.

As for price points, there will always be guys that are willing to do things for less money. Often time there is good value in that. I partner with companies that work for me, not against me. How those companies handel failures is another thing I look for. While Biomet I am sure have a very good track record I have little to no experience with there milling center. I do how ever have a very large number of nobels bars out in the field and the ones that have had failures nobel has stepped up to the plate and had virtually a no questions asked policy to make things right even when it wasn't there problem.

I definitely don't want to sound like a Nobel comercial, I just want to point out what I feel are important points when choosing who you do business with.

 

[paulg100]

"As for the bar you posted the fact that it has very little dista cant. is great but the cross section of the notches seem to put a weak point to the bar. Perhaps the picture is misleading."

you may be right there John.

looks like were going to be moving away from fixed bars now anyway and moving towards the two part fixed / removable ones with the beam and overcast, secured using lateral/clips screws. dont have the name to hand, you know the ones i mean? are Nobel doing these.

Apparently their a lot less susceptible to acrylic break down compared to fixed bars which have significant issues in that regard, and have the obvious hygiene advantages. Thats according to Kois.. not the Atlantis rep .

Had the dentsply/altlantis rep in yesterday so havnt had time to look through the literature properly yet but they looked really slick.... providing they fit properly of course.

 

[JohnWilson]

"As for the bar you posted the fact that it has very little dista cant. is great but the cross section of the notches seem to put a weak point to the bar. Perhaps the picture is misleading."

you may be right there John.

looks like were going to be moving away from fixed bars now anyway and moving towards the two part fixed / removable ones with the beam and overcast, secured using lateral/clips screws. dont have the name to hand, you know the ones i mean? are Nobel doing these.

Apparently their a lot less susceptible to acrylic break down compared to fixed bars which have significant issues in that regard, and have the obvious hygiene advantages. Thats according to Kois.. not the Atlantis rep .

Had the dentsply/altlantis rep in yesterday so havnt had time to look through the literature properly yet but they looked really slick.... providing they fit properly of course.

I know Bernard at Panthera is looking to have a solution for a milled sleeve. We have been casting them off of the primary cad bar for some time and its rather tricky when you incorporate the attachments into this rather than luting to them with resin. Also Cris from Preat and I were talking about the laser sintered Chrome suprastructure as well. I just need to figure a way to scan a bar and make the sleeve and send a STL to Chris to try it.

As for acrylic/tooth breakage on any implant retained and supported appliance if the occlusial scheme is not managed this will break. I am having a hell of a time with Hybrids I did 4 years ago starting to sheer laterals. After examining the issues its generally when its a Max arch against crown and bridge where the post denture teeth have worn bringing the ant in much hard occ contact in excursive movements. Something has to give once things collapse a bit from a worn occlusion. I am having better luck when its a hybrid against a hybrid where the occ surface is managed in the initial set up and the equillibration is accurate we have much better wear patterns to the case. I am certain its the less abrasive match nature of the denture teeth that help this.