My new, new scanner....

[NicelyMKV]

As iron sharpens iron, so shall man sharpen man. ( I said that in a real deep ominous slightly echoing voice)

 

[Beatrice]

OHH well, what Can I say?

First Thanks you guys for the good comments.

I do have produce over 40 000 bars with diffrent technology (scanner speaking).

You can understand we are not dumb people and if a scanner like a 3shape/dental wings/smartoptic/medit/optimet/etc could scan precicely for us to mill a bar, do you really think that today Panthera Dental would have invest over 1 milions $$ just in scanner technology? No i would have bought 3-4 dental scanners. But i didn't.

Scanning for a multi-implant solution is not something simple. As soon as you get into what i call "table-top" scanner you start to insert alots of problem.

First you have to scan a "scan body" that was produce by who? with what quality control? so just here let's assume that we have a top of the top scan body of 5um precision. Well we add +5um to the final precision.
Then, you have to match your scan body with a 3D file from a library done by who? and how? again here you can add more less 5-10um precision because of bad design of library. Because we all know you don't have the official technical design of the nobel implant let's say, so someone somewhere have used reverse engeneering to deisgn it and this someone might have done few mistakes here and there, who know, well you take the chance they didn't.

THen after, even with a HUGE scanner, on what you gonna put it? A plastic table? a wooden table? or like real industrial on a marble that weight over 800 pounds? Why doing that, well at 5um precision just walk by your scanner and probably that you just add 100um error just by walking during the scanning procedure. And to understand the test, take any cheap photo camera, zoom at maxium put it on a table and walk around it and look into the screen, it will shake, now imagine your scanner.

Steinbishler is a good company, we did look into this solution back with Biocad but we looked for the real thing, but today we found that they were not precice enough for us. We wanted the best to offer the best to customer.
That why we got a scanner of 1 nanometer precision that scan in color without any scanning body and powder.

I challenge anybody here to bring your well beloved bar produce with your dental scanner and put it next to one of mine under a microscope (NO YOU DONT HAVE MAGICAL EYE and you need MICROSCOPE when you want to talk quality) and tell me if I was wrong to invest this amount of money.
I will be in Chicago and anybody that want to meet me for whatever the reason are welcome to PM me (i dont have a booth there by the way)

Oh finaly, with the years now, I have realized a special skill that some lab have it is a +100um precision skill; as soon as they acquire their own technology to produce a piece the quality just increase. In fact they just cannot admit that they have invest many $$ in a technology behind a real milling center. But a majority can assume that indeed there better outside but for them what it produce is enough.

It all like car, a KIA will get you from A to B, but a Mercedes let's say will do it faster, more comfortable and safer.

Hope you will all have a great time in Chicago, hope many of you will want to meet me, and hope more that many of you will do business with me.
Oh and I AM FDA approved and no you don't need a lab to be also FDA approve to buy my product made in Canada.

Best regards all.

 

[paulg100]

"I challenge anybody here to bring your well beloved bar produce with your dental scanner and put it next to one of mine under a microscope (NO YOU DONT HAVE MAGICAL EYE and you need MICROSCOPE when you want to talk quality) and tell me if I was wrong to invest this amount of money.

Oh finaly, with the years now, I have realized a special skill that some lab have it is a +100um precision skill; as soon as they acquire their own technology to produce a piece the quality just increase. In fact they just cannot admit that they have invest many $$ in a technology behind a real milling center. But a majority can assume that indeed there better outside but for them what it produce is enough."

+100, Gone full circle and its the same conclusion ive come to. This is why i will never invest in in-house milling again. I want the best, then when something better comes along i just switch to the next company that has the new best. With in house milling your stuck with compromises and making the best of it because youve invested to much $$ not to.

Now i just wait and wait for an accurate enough scanner which is in my budget. Nothing out there is sparking my interest yet. In the mean time im managing perfectly fine with out.

 

[Affinity]

Ill make it easy for you to understand.. Do you treat everyone with such disdain, or only the people you know you wont get money out of?
I would consider myself a potential client, not that you care.. So would you talk down to me and treat me like an ignorant child if I were to shell out 35k to you and needed support?

Your 'expert' that you based all of your claims on just dogged your scanner too lol.. Good God is anyone accurate enough to mill a bar??

Youre a great resource on this site, and it seems you want to help people, youve even helped me a lot.. But Why the need to talk down to people? Just bc your grown doesnt mean you act like an adult, or treat others as peers.

 

[paulg100]

"Your 'expert' that you based all of your claims on just dogged your scanner too lol.. Good God is anyone accurate enough to mill a bar??"

Yeah Sironas equipment is accurate enough for bars, their 4.0 software does em

 

[Affinity]

What percent of Drs in the US give a crap about microscopic accuracy anyway. In europe many Drs use intraoral scopes.. But i dont know of any in the US. Maybe endo docs. If it fits passive and screws down, what is the problem? Were not covering tooth structure. Is the FDA going to stick their micro-eyes in every pts mouth?

Im not sure if anyone has noticed but implant docs arent the most accurate..

 

[rkm rdt]

I'd be happy with the appointment date on an Rx.

 

[paulg100]

"Im not sure if anyone has noticed but implant docs arent the most accurate.."

Agreed, but not doing something because the other guy isnt doing something.. well two wrongs dont make a right.

For me my main concern is that im doing everything the way it should be done. Then when the case leaves the lab i have full confidence in the work im accountable for. If the client has cut corners on the clinic side then thats his look out.

We are in the middle of a disciplinary case at the moment, where an implant case broke down after a few years due to the way the client went about the case (got bite wrong, didnt want to pay for new frame so no ceramic support, told us to carry on with it etc etc, weve all been there). Now the case has failed guess who he is trying to blame. now someone risks getting struck of the GDC register and then cant work anymore.

if you see my point, you worry about what your doing is right, not what the other guy is doing.

 

[Affinity]

I agree Paul, we all strive for perfection, even the Drs. But to an extent.. All this scientific talk of microns and marble slabs for your scanner.. But not once has anyone mentioned what were scanning....... A polyvinyl impression, poured in expanding die stone.. Or even epoxy.. But either way accuracy of far more than 5um is lost between mouth and mill. So great, weve got the most accurate bar on a MODEL.. its so arbitrary.. But boys like toys.. So we discuss whos got the bigger drill..

 

[primus]

Most scanner experts give praise and respect to the Stenbichler.

Even Bernard said that he strongly considered it, and another scanner company employee also agrees with me. (Scanner Man)

You can go buy a Million Dollar scanner if you want something better than what I bought. Won't hurt my feelings?

If you cannot handle this thread, then just leave! I can tell you are just struggling for something to say, but really have nothing to add.

I correct people with attitudes that jump into my thread with bogus facts and wrong information. Sometimes people get very defensive at that, but later realise they were wrong.

If they don't like me because I'm right, then I can live with that.

My life and actions are not controlled by money and greed. Never has, never will be. Your threat of not buying something from me is a joke.

I don't need your money, or your attitude! LOL Do you own a 3shape scanner? Is this what your are all upset about I bet?

You are just lashing out at me because you do not like what you hear about your toy, and somehow blame me for your scanners faults and weakness.

I have nothing to do with it. I am just the messenger delivering the bad news to ya!

!

 

[NicelyMKV]

Thanks guys. Making some big changes this weekend thanks to some info in this thread

 

[RJS8669]

Is it me, or is the bus an odd-yet-appropriate emblem of arrested development?

 

[Affinity]

Ill leave this thread when you leave all the other threads you bomb. This isnt your forum even with a high post count. Clearly you have no excuse for the way you treat people.

Correct this fact: tyler and many others say they do bars with a 3shape that fit just fine. How is that wong information? It just not YOUR facts. You criticize every other manufacurer because they have no data to back it up, but where are the studies on what you produce? The only thing I have a problem with is your colossal ego bogging the bandwidth here.

I have added many points here, you havent responded to any: what good is minute accuracy on a model that is less accurate than what you deem necessary in a scanner or mill.

Blame you for my scanners faults and weaknesses? When was this?

 

[paulg100]

"I have added many points here, you havent responded to any: what good is minute accuracy on a model that is less accurate than what you deem necessary in a scanner or mill. "

The way i see it, the problem is that is cumulative. 5um here. then another 10um there. then 15 um for the mill. then 20 um for the scanner. before you know it you have a massive tolerance problem.

So basically you minimize everything that IS within your control as much as possible.

if youve lost 20um through imp material and stone expansion , then surly you want a scanner and mill thats as close to 0um as possible, as your already 20um down to start with.

 

[paulg100]

never understood the attitude of doc dosent bother or cant take an imp, so we wont bother either.

If you cant flag any issues after making the model then you make the work fit and function on that model as damn near perfect as possible. That is our responsibility and all we can be held accountable for, and when the job goes out the door you have total confidence in what you've produced.

rather than thinking, well i did cut corners there, and we did use that when we shouldnt have.... "Sorry the case dont fit in the mouth DOC, of course we will remake it for free", after all maybe it was our fault.

 

[Affinity]

Of course more accurate is better. The steinbichler is surely more accurate than a 3shape.. or an inlab.. or whatever.. thats not the question really. Multiple people say 3shape can produce a bar that fits good enough, from experience. Others, with there own agenda, that hate 3shape, say it cant. So who is right? Anyone out there try to make a bar with a 3shape that doesnt fit? I mean why would they spend the money to develop the bar software if the scanner isnt even capable of making a bar??

The negative claims made in this thread about 3shape, have no FACTS to back them up.. just 'the experts said so'. Lets at least be honest..

Anyone have any pictures of a 3shape bar??

 

[paulg100]

"Multiple people say 3shape can produce a bar that fits good enough, from experience. Others, with there own agenda, that hate 3shape, say it cant. So who is right?"

1. you look for independent published research. It can still be manipulated but its generally more accurate than an opinion hidden behind an agenda. And my god theres so much of that when it comes to cad/cam its not true.

2. if theres no INDEPENDENT research, then you see it with your own eyes over several cases.

"Anyone have any pictures of a 3shape bar??"

some macro images of the marginal seal would be nice, but that still wont show us if there's consistent closed margins or a rock across the span.

you really have to get stuck in and see it for yourself i think.

been to two major cad/cam companies in the UK that "lots of techs" say put out great fitting frames. Both of the multi unit bridge samples they showed me were rocking! and i assume this was there best effort.

one thing i can say.. the bar fits im getting from Biomet 3i have been awesome so far. But then there scanning the models with uber expensive scanners (as they wont accept 3shape/meddit etc) and ultimately its just my opinion of what awesome is (under x15 mag)

No agenda or bias, if a company comes along with better gear then ill switch stright away.

one thing i do know, i wont be doing bars in our inlab system, but it has the software and sirona say its good enough :spit:
cant get a quality seal on a single coping but bars are great.

 

[rkm rdt]

I've got you all beat, Bernigts is just down the road from me ,and he will give me a great price because I'm Canadian.

 

[paulg100]

nice, now you just gotta get in loads of bar work

im liking em alot so far (only done 4 but more in the pipe),and lots of genuine benefits to everyone all round, including the patient.

 

[ParkwayDental]

Here is a quick pic of our sample bar done on 3Shape D700. I have a upper and lower all on four that are at the doc's at the moment for a try in. When they come back I would be glad to post them as well.