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    Model side release agent for dentures - need suggestions

    Discussion in 'Removable' started by altlab, May 12, 2010.

    1. altlab

      altlab New Member Full Member

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      I would appreciate your suggestion regarding "God's Gift To The World Of Release Agents" for the labstone model in denture processing - pour and injection of methlmethacrilate. I use a hydrocolloid based release but I am underwhelmed. Your help please!
       
    2. CYNOSURER

      CYNOSURER Can't reMember

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      I use V-Sep from Valplast. Follow the directions.
       
    3. kcdt

      kcdt Well-Known Member Full Member

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      I've been using DVA Acrylic and Plaster Separator. Some kind of formula involving PVS solids. NO SHELF EXPIRATION!!!!!!!! No onion skin film.
      Stuff lasts forever. Works great. Never going back to the hydrocolloid based.
      This stuff is available through all the distributors. Comes in 16oz size so you're not stuck if you hate it (although everyone who's tried has thanked me, so...).
       
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    4. DMC
      No Mood

      DMC Banned

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      I love DVA's hexane based liquid plastic stuff as well, but never tried it pressing dentures.
      [​IMG]

      Kerr SuperSep is my second favorite and much less expensive (Alcohol base and leaves a greasy slime).
      [​IMG]
       
      Last edited: May 14, 2010
    5. kcdt

      kcdt Well-Known Member Full Member

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      Supersep is for plaster to plaster, and DVA's very special is for wax pattern or ceramic margin release from a die. Neither would be suitable for denture processing. Both are great for their intended uses.
       
    6. Brian

      Brian Member

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      Foil substitute..
       
    7. kcdt

      kcdt Well-Known Member Full Member

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      Hey Brian, you ever get to see an old timer actually burnish foil to process? My nstructor in school was from that era and showed it to me. Talk about tedious. But apparently the results are stunning.
       
    8. CYNOSURER

      CYNOSURER Can't reMember

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      One of the girls on the IDF said she used plasti-pac. I very thin version. Can't recall what it was actually called. If the tin foil substitutes didn't work so well I'm sure a really sweet shrink wrap system would do a great job...no wrinkles.
       
    9. Brian

      Brian Member

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      Sure have, my dad.. Every now and then I hear him say something to the effect... Ya well in my day I used foil, real foil none of this substitute stuff.. and we burnished it and we liked it... hm, ya..

      The results are fantastic, however time consuming.. I guess someone some where is still doing it, Lincoln has it in their catalog..
       
    10. kcdt

      kcdt Well-Known Member Full Member

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      Used to be called Elastophane...I have to look in my catalogue, 'cause the current name escapes me. I had and old boss that used it on immediates... did a pretty good job on the porous alginates the office always sends.
      I wouldn't use it on definitive because it does leave a very small gap.
       
      Last edited: May 15, 2010
    11. altlab

      altlab New Member Full Member

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      To: KCDT and the world:
      You wrote:"I've been using DVA Acrylic and Plaster Separator. Some kind of formula involving PVS solids. " Thanks for the suggestion and I ordered it on your recco. I think one of the other posters may be confusing your suggestion with DVA's Very Special Seperator" - I looked it up your suggestion in Pearson's dental cat. and it definitely lists the prodict as a "plaster AND acrylic seperator" - 16 oz.
      What is your application procedure on the model?Applied hot,cold, multiple layers,blown off, etc.
      Also related to another comment:
      I have been using .001 tinfoil for doing acrylic repairs for 35 years and although it takes a moment to burnish-about 10 seconds ( and attach the edges beyond the repair with setup wax) , the repair comes out absolutely shiny, nothing to clean off and sooo much nicer than a chemical release film. If you puncture the foil applying just put a little setup wax on the offending area. Also if you are up against a denture tooth and don't want to survey out the u-cut apply a little melted red boxing wax in the undercut over the foil and it will release as you pry it off. Complicated multi-step constructions such as swing-locks can be made with no danger of acrylic bonding and come out already polished. If you are doing a denture palate repair no need to tack with wax.
       
    12. kcdt

      kcdt Well-Known Member Full Member

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      Wow! welcome. Do you have any pictures of these tin foil techniques? I'm fascinated. I would love to learn a new trick! So are you burnishing your model during a repair, or are you burnishing it to the assembled pieces and then pouring against that? Inquiring minds want to know. Can you burnish against lab putty?

      As for the DVA Plaster / Acrylic Separator. I let the molds cool some ( I microwave, so the flasks don't retain heat as long as bronze. Usually I'm grinding the basel of the teeth ( I often diatoric too) to prepare for bonding, then I apply the DVA with a brush, no pour in.Not too thick (don't let it pool, thin even coats work best), but cover all stone, let dry And paint another layer. The instructions call for two, but I do three. Depending on conditions its dry in 10 minutes or less.
      The mold will look shiney, but there is no film or film thickness, The detail reproduction is really good.
      Coupled with the shelf life this has become my favorite, hands down. Works with cold or heat cure.
       
    13. altlab

      altlab New Member Full Member

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      To Mr. Kcdt et al seperator, foil on repairs

      Mr.KCDT:
      In reply to:To: KCDT and the world:
      Wow! welcome. Do you have any pictures of these tin foil techniques? I'm fascinated. I would love to learn a new trick! So are you burnishing your model during a repair, or are you burnishing it to the assembled pieces and then pouring against that? Inquiring minds want to know. Can you burnish against lab putty?

      When you say "new trick" It makes me think "old dog" because I was doing this in 1975 - ouch!
      Thank you sooo much for the seperator info.I do so hate to reinvent the wheel.It has been so long since I made dentures and I was sure the seperator tech had moved beyond the dinosaur spit I used and I appreciate the update. I have spent waaay too much time with walnut shell blasters trying to overcome the shortcomings of foil subs.

      Tin foil tech. No pictures but when I can I will post some.
      In the mean time:
      Burnish before acrylic application.
      Assumeing you have a stone model you get an oversize piece of foil off the roll and perhaps scrunch it up a bit near any edentulous areas so you have plenty to cover the tops of the teeth near the repair and the tissue floor. I usually do any repair with one piece. You only need to go about an 1/8 inch beyond the repair but further is fine.If you have to overlap pieces it is fine. If you over-extend the foil beyond the denture just tack it with wax at that point in a few places. Denture setup wax is by far the best. Stays put, is ok with warm water in repair pot.
      Put a light coat of very hot setup wax at any seam or tear to seal the two-completely to prevent the repair acrylic from getting under it and finding the stone. If it does - no big deal. Hardly any setup wax at all is necessary and scrape it smooth if you get wild with the wax. Talking about 1mm or less seam. If you can see it it is too much. I finger-burnish the material before I seal it down from the center out and seal it. Then burnish with anything round (a discoid end works well) any where you are concerned for detail.Don't use the end of a brush-deposits paint.

      Foil (or chemical release) does introduce a spatial error -but think about how small .001 is - beyond human eyesight and no greater than a chemical coat.

      Don't get too wild with the burnish either side of an edentulous area (interproximal)as the foil will naturally eliminate most of the u-cut that locks in a repair.Why grind to fit? Surveying is best but not by much. Finally put a light coat of melted red boxing wax over the foil in the same location to correct any u-cut you see but also so that when you get ready to remove it off the model it will make the most perfect lube agent and not break the stone teeth. Since the red wax is on top of the foil, when you peel off the foil all the wax comes off too and your repair is slick and clean. The only tissue side adjustments will be where the foil stopped which takes about 2 seconds. In some cases I will lightly pumice the inside repair just because my repair looks better than the surrounding acrylic and one second of pumice evens out the polish.

      This technique works for "shake/salt and pepper" repairs but If it is any size at all just mix in a dappen dish thick, apply a gob with a #7 and smooth it out with your finger applying light pressure and you will cut your time by 2/3. This also lets you set a missing tooth free-hand and elimnate a matrix. I set most single teeth this way including any metal reinforcement.

      Yes you can burnish over silicone models (scratch the silicone where you want the wax to stick). Of course for many repairs the silicone is the release agent -and I always use a silicone model where I can. But if they send you some embeded partial in stone I always use the foil.Not from habit but to save time and hassle. Also there are plenty of repairs where you can't have any flexibility in the model and silicone will give you a warp with a rubber band. You can also mix release agents on the same repair such as foil under an anterior tooth on a flipper and the rest a chemical release agent.

      Exotic repairs or new cases such as a swing-lock where you would like the acrylic to overlap acrylic when is closes (to hide the joint) are a nightmare with any other method but just beautiful this way.The .001 foil also provides just the right amount of play you need (like a door shim) but the gap is invisible to the eye. Same with either side of a tooth add-on.Also if you have to do a repair next to an unseated crown this is the way to go. Hader bars,any attachment with an u-cut, basically anything that would be a nightmare if a chemical release failed as in flushed away by the monomer.

      If you are dealing with stone this technique eliminates sloppy foil substitute and the drying time and the lousy tissue surface encapsulating stone particles and the mess. "Foil substitute" it is but why substitute where the foil saves time. The surface next to the foil is smooth like glass.Also the setup on any repair takes about 5 minutes or less.
      Aluminum foil is lousy compared to .001 foil. About $60 at Pearson and a roll will last for years.Thanks again for the help.
       
    14. kcdt

      kcdt Well-Known Member Full Member

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      Thanks for the insight. I've never tried tinfoil on a repair, so I just might give it a shot.
      I know what you mean about the walnut blasters too- what a PIA. I prefer to invest my second pour in flowstone (I know guys use PVS putty or one of the elastomeric coatings, but the mere thought of a floater makes me nervous). The DVA does a great job separating. For anything left interproximal by mechanical retention, I now toss them in a Sympro unit with L&R Plaster & Stone Remover. This is just after prepolish finish, they come out clean as a whistle and polish becomes easy. I acquired the unit at a discount from another lab, and I gotta tell you it beats the crap out of an ultrasonic.
       
    15. araucaria
      Relaxed

      araucaria Balanced Staff Member Donator Full Member

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      dont know who supplies this in US but it's gotta be one of the best.
      I use it for all injection and thermoplastic work and the surfaces come out a dream.
      (unifol)
      Perident - Unifol
       
    16. Jim P

      Jim P New Member

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      As far as a seperator for processing (heat cured) dentures, injection or whatever Ivoclar makes an excellent "tin foil" subsittute. Best I've ever used in 40 years. As this discussion de-evolved into a repair discussion try this. Another Ivoclar product that I swear by is their lab putty. Make a matrix, tissue or facial side and there are no issues with a seperator. KISS*. Need a quickie flipper? Paint the model with a wax seperator, set tx, wax up and use putty as a matrix placing two sprues at the posterior most extension, pour, finish, done. I've made a ton of "quickies" like this on Mission of Mercy Projects.
      * "keep it simple son"
       
    17. PDLtd

      PDLtd Member Full Member

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      Great tips, and totally agree. As a side note, We use KISS here as "Keep it simple stupid" haha


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
       
    18. JMN
      Curious

      JMN Christian Member Full Member

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      Pure curiosity, anyone ever try kitchen cooking sprays like Pam? It works way hotter than our heat cure temps.
       
    19. denturist-student

      denturist-student Active Member Full Member

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      I have been using ivoclars separator for years two or three coats without any problems. Last batch is peeling off model during packing. I think it may have been frozen on the truck....So I am ordering another one from a different source.
       
    20. JKraver
      Tired

      JKraver Well-Known Member Full Member

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      Use Ivoclars separating fluid.
       

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