Lucitone 199 problem

[Daniel Watters]

We had the chemist in from Dentsply. I asked him about a problem we were having with 199. The powder color was a blanched or light color, when mixed and even durring press packing. I trial pack at least 3 times. Still couldn't get that vibrant red/pink color before I closed my flasks. I was told a few things; 1. you must tumble the acrylic regularly; 2. never keep the bucket near a heat source or near in a humid place; 3. keep extra monomer in a cool area; 4. they HAVE been having trouble regulating the color stablility since the removal of cadmium. All said I am using Diamond D now. A little darker, but I like it. Still using 199 for all my "die hard" clients though. It comes out OK but just not the same.

 

[TomZ]

Update-

After speaking with John Wilson on the phone, we have remedied the shade problem that he was having with his Diamond D Chroma Essence and its full steam ahead with continued use of the product.
I appreciate Johns willingness to look into the problem from outside a product standpoint and manage it from within his business with an open mind.

Thanks to John, I have added temperature calibration to my list of suspect places to look when helping labs troubleshoot acylic shade issues.

Thanks again John...

 

[JohnWilson]

Just to follow up on Toms comments..

Tom was very helpful and tested a sample of our suspect material.

Prior to getting his review I started thinking about things. We have a Nevin boilout/washout/curing system that we have taken as gospel that the thermostat was bang on perfect. I have since calibrated it to find that it was approx 15degrees colder than we thought. The slow cures were never reaching optimum internal flask temperatures and this was what was in our opinion causing inconsistent shading on cases.

Since remedying the situation we have had perfect and consistent shading on our cases.

Diamond D chroma essence really has been a wonderfully consistent product for us over the years. While in other areas of the lab we calibrate our equipment weekly we have never really addressed it with our denture curing tank. Now its on the list.

 

[lcmlabforum]

This question for Mark Jackson since he is always about consistency and standardization. What happens when supplier cannot deliver that color or product stability and we end up paying for it with extra time on the patient, etc? Should they not compensate us? I had problem with the Light shade L-199 as well and that was about 2 years ago. Contacted Dentsply and they told me sometimes, the damage is done during shipping because the supply houses (?or Dentsply) will not ship in controlled climate trucks. Come summer in Texas, you can imagine what happens in transit. They were nice about it and shipped a new bottle to Jon (Littman) in Denton N/C. However, I end up having to explain to my cancer patient why there were streaks of white, etc on the remake denture I have to make her FOC; after the first lab destroyed the borders I captured and waxed. You know how much of my chair and lab time (I do most of my lab work) went down the drain on that one case, for a very nice and resilient patient.
ADA do not seem to have a list of 'approved materials' - but I assume Diamond D would be FDA cleared. Do you know a web-site that has quick reference on what dental materials are currently approved for clinical use, like Ticonium vs the new Beryllium Ticonium? I am trying to find out if Super-T is on that list.
LCM

 

[jimi]

My removable guy told me Dentsply made a recent change to the formula recently again and was 'sticking to the cast' more. Mind you, he knows what he is doing and and have also switched to Diamond D. Anyone else have similar problems with sticking recently?
LCM

stone sticking inside denture, even after thouroughly isolated with liquid alginate sep.? Try soaking finished denture in Ortho model polishing juice in pressure pot. The plaster will soften and brush out. repeat if nessecary.

 

[Flipperlady]

This question for Mark Jackson since he is always about consistency and standardization. What happens when supplier cannot deliver that color or product stability and we end up paying for it with extra time on the patient, etc? Should they not compensate us? I had problem with the Light shade L-199 as well and that was about 2 years ago. Contacted Dentsply and they told me sometimes, the damage is done during shipping because the supply houses (?or Dentsply) will not ship in controlled climate trucks. Come summer in Texas, you can imagine what happens in transit. They were nice about it and shipped a new bottle to Jon (Littman) in Denton N/C. However, I end up having to explain to my cancer patient why there were streaks of white, etc on the remake denture I have to make her FOC; after the first lab destroyed the borders I captured and waxed. You know how much of my chair and lab time (I do most of my lab work) went down the drain on that one case, for a very nice and resilient patient.
ADA do not seem to have a list of 'approved materials' - but I assume Diamond D would be FDA cleared. Do you know a web-site that has quick reference on what dental materials are currently approved for clinical use, like Ticonium vs the new Beryllium Ticonium? I am trying to find out if Super-T is on that list.
LCM

Most of the problems i'm reading here sound like problems with separating fluid not acrylic. If you slop on sep and pack while it's still wet and puddled up you are going to get white streaks in your acrylic. If you don't do a proper boilout (leave flasks in boiling water too long or don't rinse well) no amount of sep is going to keep stone from sticking. Ivoclar sep fluid is the best bar none
but even so if you don't follow protocol then you are going to have problems.
Ask me how I know

 

[lcmlabforum]

Most of the problems i'm reading here sound like problems with separating fluid not acrylic. If you slop on sep and pack while it's still wet and puddled up you are going to get white streaks in your acrylic. If you don't do a proper boilout (leave flasks in boiling water too long or don't rinse well) no amount of sep is going to keep stone from sticking. Ivoclar sep fluid is the best bar none
but even so if you don't follow protocol then you are going to have problems.
Ask me how I know

Michelle, this would be Jon (Littman) in Denton and you might know him being
around the same area. I would trust he is pretty good with following protocols with all these years behind him doing the type of work he does,
highly doubt he is the slop on type . . .
Jimi - I would let him know about the ortho finishing idea. My understanding
is that it is simply soap (like 'Lux') flakes in solution.
LCM

 

[TomZ]

I can vouche for Jon as well. I have known him for years and he is definitely not a guy that doesnt understand the materials.

 

[dmonwaxa]

Do anyone still use tincture of green soap to clean after boiling out? Seems thats what I was taught back in the day.

 

[Flipperlady]

I can vouche for === as well. I have known him for years and he is definitely not a guy that doesnt understand the materials.

With all due respect and writing as such, why did this have to take a personal turn? I hope you and the good doc will edit his name out of posts. In general what I said could and does happen. There has been a lot of 199 bashing then insert of that acrylic you advertise for on the forums. I try to keep an open mind when it comes to products that i use and look at all angles.

 

[dmonwaxa]

Hope the motive is not to peddle a particular product, but to provide information based on ones own experiences. I have had to deal with the yellowing issue of 199 LRP, me no likey,,, very costly,,,,embarassing and unprofessional in my book. Uh...donno..Not good. Now based on my experience and the information(knowledge) passed on here in another post by one of the parties, I took their suggestion. A sample is on the way, should be here today or tomorrow. No hassles, and friendly CS. Lets see how it works, truth be told 'd rather have the CS, than a company's line of BS.

 

[Flipperlady]

Hope the motive is not to peddle a particular product, but to provide information based on ones own experiences. I have had to deal with the yellowing issue of 199 LRP, me no likey,,, very costly,,,,embarassing and unprofessional in my book. Uh...donno..Not good. Now based on my experience and the information(knowledge) passed on here in another post by one of the parties, I took their suggestion. A sample is on the way, should be here today or tomorrow. No hassles, and friendly CS. Lets see how it works, truth be told 'd rather have the CS, than a company's line of BS.

Every once in awhile I'll have a problem with 199, but write it off to user error and maybe the acrylic being a little more technique sensitive. I have the same problem with the denture wax. I know even the change of seasons (humidity, heat cold) can effect quality. If I let flask cool too much before packing I get a funky white film. If I pack too soon before a moderate dough stage, color andthe white funky spots on cooked acrylic occurs. You have to knead the dough after letting it set up to moderate dough stage, and pack in warm flask after sep fluid has had time to gloss over (no puddling. Even cellophane trail packing sheets can cause problems. Sometimes the white funky stuff is caused when the humidity builds up under sheets while trial packing. This I contribute to not letting acrylic set up enough. There is a fine line between ready to pack and under,over set up acrylic. I'm not against using a new acrylic, but know when I'm being sold something from a saleman

 

[TomZ]

I make no bones about being a spokesperson for Diamond D acrylic. I am also a technician who fabricates removable prosthetics using it everyday. As you know I also cross the country during the course of the year presenting on techniques and products I use in my laboratory. The cool thing is I buy and use the products and believe in them. The cooler thing is I have direct access to anyone who has used Diamond D at the lectures and nobody is complaining about its performance. Like I say in the presentations I give. Try the product as a free sample and judge for yourself. If it cures your problems, reduces repairs, polishes better, packs or injects nicer, all the better. If not, continue using what you like.

 

[dmonwaxa]

Every once in awhile I'll have a problem with 199, but write it off to user error and maybe the acrylic being a little more technique sensitive. I have the same problem with the denture wax. I know even the change of seasons (humidity, heat cold) can effect quality. If I let flask cool too much before packing I get a funky white film. If I pack too soon before a moderate dough stage, color andthe white funky spots on cooked acrylic occurs. You have to knead the dough after letting it set up to moderate dough stage, and pack in warm flask after sep fluid has had time to gloss over (no puddling. Even cellophane trail packing sheets can cause problems. Sometimes the white funky stuff is caused when the humidity builds up under sheets while trial packing. This I contribute to not letting acrylic set up enough. There is a fine line between ready to pack and under,over set up acrylic. I'm not against using a new acrylic, but know when I'm being sold something from a saleman

Like you, I'm sure I can smell BS a mile away. This yellowing issue presented itself again recently, from one week to the next. All procedures were consistent with my normal practices, singlehandedly....I do it alone. Same batch two different results. I'm not gonna chance that again three times a charm. Powder and liquid is stored in a stable environment, not even close to a heat source. Liquid is not contaminated, expires in 6 mths. Powder tumbled before each use, expires next year. I'm a bit perplexed. What would you suggest?

 

[Flipperlady]

Like you, I'm sure I can smell BS a mile away. This yellowing issue presented itself again recently, from one week to the next. All procedures were consistent with my normal practices, singlehandedly....I do it alone. Same batch two different results. I'm not gonna chance that again three times a charm. Powder and liquid is stored in a stable environment, not even close to a heat source. Liquid is not contaminated, expires in 6 mths. Powder tumbled before each use, expires next year. I'm a bit perplexed. What would you suggest?

If it were me I'd pack up the left overs and send it back for an exchange and make sure it's a different lot #. I hope dentsply is reading all of these responses and making sure they don't change the formula so much that no body wants to use it anymore. If you send yours back please make a note of some of the complaints others are experiencing and hopefully they'll take care of any problems. Of course if that doesn't work there are plenty of other acrylics to try out.

 

[lcmlabforum]

With all due respect and writing as such, why did this have to take a personal turn? I hope you and the good doc will edit his name out of posts. In general what I said could and does happen. There has been a lot of 199 bashing then insert of that acrylic you advertise for on the forums. I try to keep an open mind when it comes to products that i use and look at all angles.

I only make direct references when I have something good to say something about someone, usually. And I do not support one material over the other. I would use major supplier like Ivocap, 199, Diamond D, Fricke etc. However, I cannot tolerate material problems after all the time I put in to make records, etc besides waxing. Many patients have cancer, etc and if they are easy, they do not get referred to me. And Jon's been using 199 for a long time too.
I just saying I can totally trust him to be careful with his techniques.
LCM

 

[Beckz79]

I'm having trouble with Lucitone 199, the acrylic is coming out bleached/blanched/too light

 

[lcmlabforum]

Sorry to hear about that. You have read all the possible problem sources above?
If not, try calling Dentsply directly and ask for tech support for removable/acrylic -
make sure you have batch number, etc.
Good luck,
LCM

 

[greatsmileslabguy]

Lucitone 199

I have been making dentures in my family lab for years and have used both Lucitone 199 and Diamond D. As long as you use the Lucitone 199 as directed and check the powder and liquid dates you will not have a problem. For my high end dentures I will only use the 199 because I can fabricate a strong and lightweight denture without reinforcement and when processed and boiled correctly will not lose it shine or structural stability. Streaks of white are usually when i have a tech who adds too much sep and doesnt dry it, or if the wash isnt even and some wax residue is left on the plaster.

With diamond d, many of my doctors were not happy with the tissue tones so i had to resort to sifting out fiber and mixing shades. structurally Diamond D works good, but i have more faith and confidence in 199.

 

[Stuffdogg]

Just updating here. I made the switch to Diamond D several month ago. It always breaks out cleaner than 199 ever did and from what I've seen, it seems stronger than 199. they claim it bonds better with the teeth. I can see no difference in bonding than in 199 but they sold me on it. I started using the self cure diamond d for all my repairs and flippers and have even used it as pour acrylic and I just love the stuff. the self cure seems very strong. anyone know if this is because they use the same type material as the heat cure for strength? I have not seen a flipper back for repair yet my old self cure seemed brittle and would often come back for repair. (i make my flippers thin as possible for pt. comfort) My lab friends down the street got a sample of the self cure and reported that it looks dingy almost brown in color. they said the monomer looked brownish. mine looks clear I guess they got a bad sample. as for the tones those dentist who are complaining about the shade are probably accustomed to 199's look. the diamond d shade looks fine to me. 99 times out of 100 I don't think if 2 patients ,one with dd dentures and one with 199 dentures, were standing a foot away from me that I'd be able to notice a difference in gum shade... unless they pulled their upper lips up.. My prosthodontist mentor called that "invitation only aesthetics"...lol . I used 199 for years and would use it again, It just seems second best after using dd, in my opinion.