Ideal Model Systems & Worthless Dowel Pins

[charles007]

Has anyone noticed how bad the contacts are when going to your solid pour to check the contacts and you then wonder if you picked up the wrong solid pour model. If your using many of the newer down pins with softer plastic sleeves, that's your biggest problem.. This is why your dies and other pinned sections are moving.. Can't believe how I used these for such a long time before realizing how stupid it is to buy these.. Several brands have soft sleeves, metal sleeves, and some with a hard plastic sleeve that may or may not be ok.

1. Is there a dowel pin that really works without movement ?
2. Has anyone Compared the newer model trays like Monotrac, DVA, Cbite, and Artimax ( uses pins ) ? Is there a clear winner for ease of use with less contact problems with a good articulator on the tray..
I personally agree the one pour plastic trays make a better, more accurate model...
Ok plaster jockeys, throw out the wise tips for more accurate models

 

[doug]

The mouth is a dynamic environment, unless you expect perfection from a model there is little need to worry about the minimal change caused or inferred by plastic sleeves or model systems. The real issue is how accurate is the temporary, how mobile are the patients teeth, or how has the occlusion of the patient caused tooth movement after a single tooth in the arch has been further traumatized with preparation for a crown. don't burden yourself with personal responsibility for perfect contacts or occlusion. There are at least three other involved, the dentist, the assistant and the patient.

 

[Toast]

I haven't found a system that eliminates the solid model. I have found that when using the monotrac system it takes a lot less time to seat on the solid model than when using a dowel pin system. The Dr is more likely yo blame me for tight contacts than his assistant or himself so its solid models for everyone unless they consistently have open/loose contacts.

 

[Bobby Orr ceramics]

it's not the pins and sleeves that are the problem.....it's the base stone expansion. We use the plastic sleeves. I love em . And we always dial in the contacts on a solid cast for a single tooth up to an entire arch. It's the only way. This is why an iTero model is so consistent......it's a solid milled model with no distortion and it's very accurate from good scanned data.

 

[ts4341]

Stalagmite® Dental Model System!!!

 

[charles007]

it's not the pins and sleeves that are the problem.....it's the base stone expansion. We use the plastic sleeves. I love em . And we always dial in the contacts on a solid cast for a single tooth up to an entire arch. It's the only way. This is why an iTero model is so consistent......it's a solid milled model with no distortion and it's very accurate from good scanned data.

Bobby, most of us know about expansion. Using plastic sleeves, you can literally see the movement, which is coming from the sleeve..This is the point I'm trying to make.
If you use a system like A.Girrbach's Giroform, it uses a solid plastic base with pins that don't have that kind of movement, or expansion issues. This system is closer to a solid pour model. Plastic trays like Monotrac and others lock in the model together in a one pour, unlike a pins and stone bases that are only as good as the model person and type of pin system used.. Then add in the expansion to the mix... I see this as to many varables.
My $$ Renferts Top Spin, Milo Pro and expensive pins are costing me lost labor correcting contacts..
Next year I'm going to start using plactic trays.. and the heck with pins, glue and expensive equipment..
Simple is better.

 

[charles007]

Stalagmite® Dental Model System!!!

Not sure if I've seen this one or not, is this the clear tray/articulator ?

 

[ts4341]

stalagmitedental.com

Its been an excellent system, some of the most stable dies & bases i've used.

 

[IVY]

Bobby, most of us know about expansion. Using plastic sleeves, you can literally see the movement, which is coming from the sleeve..This is the point I'm trying to make.
If you use a system like A.Girrbach's Giroform, it uses a solid plastic base with pins that don't have that kind of movement, or expansion issues. This system is closer to a solid pour model. Plastic trays like Monotrac and others lock in the model together in a one pour, unlike a pins and stone bases that are only as good as the model person and type of pin system used.. Then add in the expansion to the mix... I see this as to many varables.
My $$ Renferts Top Spin, Milo Pro and expensive pins are costing me lost labor correcting contacts..
Next year I'm going to start using plactic trays.. and the heck with pins, glue and expensive equipment..
Simple is better.

Ive used girbaach system for 5 years now and would never look back. Once you have the system it is very inexpensive to bulkorder plates and pins, super fast, very clean, great presentation, and most important accurate....as close to solid model as you will get. I use the stone dispenser also to maintain consistency...solid models and pinned are poured by the same measurements everytime with dispenser.

 

[NicelyMKV]

Monotrac Fast, easy, ACCURATE and absolutely awesome for CAD CAM application!

 

[rkm rdt]

I use Artimax.

If I want perefct contacts I use a 10x microscope.

 

[Labwa]

Ive used girbaach system for 5 years now and would never look back. Once you have the system it is very inexpensive to bulkorder plates and pins, super fast, very clean, great presentation, and most important accurate....as close to solid model as you will get. I use the stone dispenser also to maintain consistency...solid models and pinned are poured by the same measurements everytime with dispenser.

I agree!

 

[2th-man]

Giroform for full arch and Cbite Allstone for quadrants with Fuji Rock. I also use the Whipmix Auqua Spense for all die stone and investments. It's works great.

 

[toof makr]

:eviltongue:
i've already wasted my time w/ you on this...:heeeelllllooooo:

 

[Teeth R Us]

Got the Giroform early this month, saves me allot of time and very accurate. I tested the monotrac, very nice system and close to solid model, but my clients dont use triple trays.

 

[adamb4321]

I've tried various one pour tray systems and whilst the initial pouring is quick they take longer to trim up to a nice finish, also they are very prone to dust/debris preventing the segments from seating properly if your not scrupulous about keeping your models clean, this is especially true when you saw out your dies as dust can tend to get compacted onto the bottom of the model leading to discrepancies.
I haven't tried Monotrac but did try a similar system which did my head in as the retention holes in the bottom of the model frequently broke off leading at best a messy looking model or at worst a die with no real location or the dies were nearly impossible to remove on setting.

For me the best system is Girrbachs Giroform, it's quick, accurate and produces great looking models easily, the puttying up stage can look time consuming but if you use a stone that stacks nicely you don't really need to box in the buccal side of the imp.

 

[paulg100]

I use the crosspin system mainly but is cross arch accuracy of the sectional worth worrying about?

All i use the sectional for is the die/margin.

Everything else, contacts, occlusion etc, i do on the solid now, in the wax state. That way there is virtually nothing to adjust once the units are pressed etc.

and for bridges i always join my wax frames etc on the solid as well.

More accurate then ANY sectional system out there.

Id say find the quikest, cheapest presentable system and just make sure you use a quality die stone. forget about the cross arch accuracy, there all 'near enough' for the purpose they serve.

EDIT: unless a client is using silly tripple trays, in which case the second pour is quite likely next to useless.
In all honesty, you know where a client is coming from when they use these, there not bothered about accuracy anyway. Either that or there ignorant. :frusty:

"If I want perefct contacts I use a 10x microscope."

Not that theres anything as a perfect contact off a model, but you dont need a mag unit to get em spot on,

I use diamond strips now, the quality of the contacts you can get with these blows tape out the water. very fast to get awesome broad contact AREAS (not points). for large multi unit cases there a god send, but once you see how accurate the contacts are you end up using them for single units as well.

http://www.nti.de/fileadmin/inhalte/PDF/labor/Diamantinstrumente/Diamantstreifen1.12.pdf

 

[rkm rdt]

What guage are these strips? They look very convenient.

I'd still use my scope though.

 

[paulg100]

come in 3 different grits i think, fine medium and course.

i use the red which is medium i think. Thickness of red strip is 0.10mm which sounds alot compared to the 9 micron tape i use but they work different.

there not cheap and they take a while to get the feel for em, but once you see the difference in the contacts you get, i promise youd never go back to tape alone.

You start with tape and get close then use em as a finishing strip. youd spend for ever trying to get the same quality with a bur and tape, if at all.

Its extremely difficult and time consuming on say a 10 unit veneer case to get perfect shunt free contacts across the arch. You can do that with these in no time at all.

There very similar to what docs use in the mouth.

and yeah i do still check with mag, but never have to touch em now.

 

[rkm rdt]

I've never seen them here however I've always wondered if the dr's version would work.....then I forget to order them


One of my first New Years resolutions will be to stop procrastinating.

Maybe I'll make a list of the rest ,later