i have a dry milling machine which workks really well

[JMN]

Who needs evidence based dentistry anyways? Sideshow, arent you ready to rip a dental school dean for teaching saran wrap impression technique, yet you dont know how these veneers are even cemented? Im not judging, I would mill a zirconia crack pipe for these Drs if it pays the bills.. but there are volumes written on adhesive dentistry, and it has come so far, why use something contraindicated? For me, Im not sending out dozens of veneers that have the potential to pop off at any moment, when pressed veneers look better, will never come off even if they crack, are just as strong (IMO no need for more strength than LD),and has fluourescence etc. Veneers are the highest ticket item on my list, Im not really trying to save time or money on them, nor do I think the Drs (or Pts) want that, I think were shooting ourselves repeatedly in the foot with a BB gun here.

Link to the only company trying to sell zirconia bonding material *to my knowledge*, if you scroll to the bottom, notice these words :
"Representative SEM micrograph of debonded zirconia surface (original figure: X2000, bar = 20 µm). A cohesive failure mode was observed with the use of Z-Prime Plus." also "Theoretical demonstration of how the hydrogen (-H) group of phosphate monomer interacts with the Zr-O group of zirconia and forms the phosphate monolayer on the zirconia surface."
Buyer beware.

https://www.dentalaegis.com/special-issues/BISCO/2010/03/bonding-to-zirconia-innovation-in-adhesion

A great many thanks for the article link.

 

[2thm8kr]

Who needs evidence based dentistry anyways? Sideshow, arent you ready to rip a dental school dean for teaching saran wrap impression technique, yet you dont know how these veneers are even cemented? Im not judging, I would mill a zirconia crack pipe for these Drs if it pays the bills.. but there are volumes written on adhesive dentistry, and it has come so far, why use something contraindicated? For me, Im not sending out dozens of veneers that have the potential to pop off at any moment, when pressed veneers look better, will never come off even if they crack, are just as strong (IMO no need for more strength than LD),and has fluourescence etc. Veneers are the highest ticket item on my list, Im not really trying to save time or money on them, nor do I think the Drs (or Pts) want that, I think were shooting ourselves repeatedly in the foot with a BB gun here.

Link to the only company trying to sell zirconia bonding material *to my knowledge*, if you scroll to the bottom, notice these words :
"Representative SEM micrograph of debonded zirconia surface (original figure: X2000, bar = 20 µm). A cohesive failure mode was observed with the use of Z-Prime Plus." also "Theoretical demonstration of how the hydrogen (-H) group of phosphate monomer interacts with the Zr-O group of zirconia and forms the phosphate monolayer on the zirconia surface."
Buyer beware.

https://www.dentalaegis.com/special-issues/BISCO/2010/03/bonding-to-zirconia-innovation-in-adhesion

Been using this product for a few years. When we started using it zr posterior crowns quit popping off the preps. I don't have anything but anecdotal evidence. I think it works. Would I do a Maryland bridge or veneers with, No.

 

[EJADA]

We'll all this said. It doesn't appear much has changed as of yet. I'll stick with my emax press little layer charge a lot. Been a great combination for what 12ish years.

I would thumbs up [emoji106] several of ya but Travis hasn't fixed that on taptalk yet for DLN.

Hint hint Travis. [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

Can someone share some photos of these Zr veneers? I'm dubious. But that means nothing. Just am yet to see any look as good as emax aesthetically.

i still have the file. i can remill and sinter it...but as i said it was for another lab. A1 shade. nothing fancy to do on my end.

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

Who needs evidence based dentistry anyways? Sideshow, arent you ready to rip a dental school dean for teaching saran wrap impression technique, yet you dont know how these veneers are even cemented? Im not judging, I would mill a zirconia crack pipe for these Drs if it pays the bills.. but there are volumes written on adhesive dentistry, and it has come so far, why use something contraindicated? For me, Im not sending out dozens of veneers that have the potential to pop off at any moment, when pressed veneers look better, will never come off even if they crack, are just as strong (IMO no need for more strength than LD),and has fluourescence etc. Veneers are the highest ticket item on my list, Im not really trying to save time or money on them, nor do I think the Drs (or Pts) want that, I think were shooting ourselves repeatedly in the foot with a BB gun here.

Link to the only company trying to sell zirconia bonding material *to my knowledge*, if you scroll to the bottom, notice these words :
"Representative SEM micrograph of debonded zirconia surface (original figure: X2000, bar = 20 µm). A cohesive failure mode was observed with the use of Z-Prime Plus." also "Theoretical demonstration of how the hydrogen (-H) group of phosphate monomer interacts with the Zr-O group of zirconia and forms the phosphate monolayer on the zirconia surface."
Buyer beware.

https://www.dentalaegis.com/special-issues/BISCO/2010/03/bonding-to-zirconia-innovation-in-adhesion

again, i repeat.... i MILLED IT FOR ANOTHER LAB! i have had a client ask me about them and i have turned them away from zirc as an option for veneers. its not a suitable option in my laboratory but you cannot seriously expect me to dictate how someone else runs their lab, nor to call their clients and ask about their methods and procedures.
my general statements that would be given to a dean of dentistry have the potential to effect all of us, myself included. and while my remarks were not wholly serious in nature, they were justified with the type of trash thats being sent out of doctorate schools and passes for dentistry.
and more recently than the article you quoted:

"Bonding of zirconia is now dependable using a surface adhesive primer, which allows for the use of veneers lined with this material."

they say that after 2 years the bond was still good on this study with bonded zirconia...and look at that, its an adhesive primer as i thought.

"After 2 years, there were no de-bondings, no sensitivity, and no postoperative complications."

now, theres no promises as to how long this will hold up (or if its still bonded),but it remains that it was zirconia veneers bonded in place that lasted at least 2 years. can it be done? i think we know. is it sustainable and viable for proper treatment, dont know. i wouldnt bet the farm on it yet. yet being the key. the technology (and zirconia) that has come out since this article has been posted is light years ahead of where it was. tomorrow, a whole new leaf will be turned over.

https://www.dentalaegis.com/id/2011/06/bonding-of-zirconia-veneers

 

[JMN]

again, i repeat.... i MILLED IT FOR ANOTHER LAB! i have had a client ask me about them and i have turned them away from zirc as an option for veneers. its not a suitable option in my laboratory but you cannot seriously expect me to dictate how someone else runs their lab, nor to call their clients and ask about their methods and procedures.
my general statements that would be given to a dean of dentistry have the potential to effect all of us, myself included. and while my remarks were not wholly serious in nature, they were justified with the type of trash thats being sent out of doctorate schools and passes for dentistry.
and more recently than the article you quoted:

"Bonding of zirconia is now dependable using a surface adhesive primer, which allows for the use of veneers lined with this material."

they say that after 2 years the bond was still good on this study with bonded zirconia...and look at that, its an adhesive primer as i thought.

"After 2 years, there were no de-bondings, no sensitivity, and no postoperative complications."

now, theres no promises as to how long this will hold up (or if its still bonded),but it remains that it was zirconia veneers bonded in place that lasted at least 2 years. can it be done? i think we know. is it sustainable and viable for proper treatment, dont know. i wouldnt bet the farm on it yet. yet being the key. the technology (and zirconia) that has come out since this article has been posted is light years ahead of where it was. tomorrow, a whole new leaf will be turned over.

https://www.dentalaegis.com/id/2011/06/bonding-of-zirconia-veneers

Ooo goodie! More fact based analysis! Thanks for the link!

 

[mptz]

but does spending 20000 for veneers make sense

 

[2thm8kr]

Not to me.

 

[Affinity]

I realized that after I reread it that it was for another lab, I wasn't chiding you either way. The lecture I was at this weekend said polished zirconia promotes the best soft tissue adhesion, so maybe theres something there. I'm not against it, and I don't study many research papers.

What say the zirconia manufacturers around here, of which theyre many? They seem silent on this forum, paging Brent!

 

[Affinity]

Best I found yet, haven't read through it though. Plus its by a bunch of Canadiens so who knows..

https://www.eurekasmile.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/2010CanadianJofProsthodontics.pdf

 

[Ken Knapp]

Only mechenical retention on the ZR side so far. Can not etch it. We will have to see how successful the results are in the future. I would like to see some data. Does anyone have it?


Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Zirconia Veneers are made all the time. I have been making them for about 4 years now without any problems. Dentist should use Ivoclean, Z-Prime or Ceramir cement. Zirconia cannot be bonded.
Article:
http://glidewelldental.com/educatio...-issue-4/the-zirconia-based-porcelain-veneer/

 

[mptz]

who delete my post I just said after all your excellent comments it wasn't worth buying a wet mill to do veneers what's controversial about that

 

[Mark Blyumin]

Zirconia Veneers are made all the time. I have been making them for about 4 years now without any problems. Dentist should use Ivoclean, Z-Prime or Ceramir cement. Zirconia cannot be bonded.
Article:
http://glidewelldental.com/educatio...-issue-4/the-zirconia-based-porcelain-veneer/

Thank you very much.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

Best I found yet, haven't read through it though. Plus its by a bunch of Canadiens so who knows..

https://www.eurekasmile.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/2010CanadianJofProsthodontics.pdf

ive been trying to find more up-to-date info on it....but it seems it all dies off after about 2012-14. maybe its just being done as normal practice now and i am in the dark. i dont know. but the articles we keep referencing are 2014 and older. lot of stuff has changed in the past 2-3 years.

 

[Affinity]

I don't think there is any holy bible in dentistry, many Drs ignore the research and do things how they want, I have no problem with that. Its their patients, as long as they understand the risk. Maybe it is easier and cheaper to do veneers that you don't warranty, and charge twice for when they fall off?

 

[Affinity]

The biggest thing Ive taken away from this, is that theyre called Zeneers...

 

[Ken Knapp]

ive been trying to find more up-to-date info on it....but it seems it all dies off after about 2012-14. maybe its just being done as normal practice now and i am in the dark. i dont know. but the articles we keep referencing are 2014 and older. lot of stuff has changed in the past 2-3 years.

December 2016 Zirconia Veneer application:
Dec 7, 2016 - Chairside Live Episode 185: Clever Tips for Bonding to Zirconia. clinical newsline. Using BruxZir® Anterior veneers.

 

[Ken Knapp]

The biggest thing Ive taken away from this, is that theyre called Zeneers...

Lava Esthetic Indications for Use include Veneers, see attached:

 

[Affinity]

Forgive me if I don't regard what Glidewell has to say about our industry.. GW is in the make tooth, remake tooth, repeat, business.

I'm not anti-zeneer, I'm a cynic.

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

December 2016 Zirconia Veneer application:
Dec 7, 2016 - Chairside Live Episode 185: Clever Tips for Bonding to Zirconia. clinical newsline. Using BruxZir® Anterior veneers.

yes, i found that.
but for those of us that dont take glidewell as gospel...im looking for other sources