Emax-Press v cad

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dhdc

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Having just had a disaster of a day mis-pressing in my ep3000,i am now trying to work out if its worth doing my Emax on my 3shape?
Where do i start............Im finishing a full arch case,all the posteriors are in,pressed in emax,now doing the ants,Took me a fair while to wax the 12 to full contour,as i work onsite i was back and foward with the dentist to make sure all was good with shape and contior etc.Next day sprued/invested/burnt out etc etc,then de-vested.
Having done this thousands of times before i didnt expect any problems,but i did sprue them a bit differently from usual,i placed the sprue slightly more to the palatal/lingual to try and preserve my incisal length a bit......do know why now as im going to cut back anyway.
So,friday arvo,6 rings to de-vest and,not good.It looks like the internal part of the crown broke away during pressing,leaving me with no internal surface and a big inclusion at the margins.
Having wastes time and materials and having that sinking feeling while de vesting,i decided to scan them and get them milled,which must admit was a far quicker process,but much more expensive,i will wait and see how them come back.
Im starting tp think it may be better to mill emax now,especially as we are doing less of them due to Lava Plus looking really good,
Would love to hear your experiences,Pros and Cons of Waxing Pressing V Cad,
Thanks Dean
 
ParkwayDental

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Are you sending the files off to be milled? If so why not get them printed and then press. I can print each unit for 5 bucks for ya. Emax cad is great but way to expensive for my taste.
 
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dhdc

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Yes im sending them off for milling,i have also sent file s for wax ,but we do not have as many options in Australia for these services.
I just thought by the time you design them is it worth getting them milled to cut out sprueing,investing,burn out,press devest etc etc
 
ParkwayDental

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I got ya, I personally like to press I just feel like I have more control that way.
 
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marnero

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Sounds to me that you just need a little more attention to sprue positioning. Press Vest Speed does sometimes break off if the abutment is quite narrow and tall. You have to place the sprue absolutely vertical to the abutment, so that you dont get any horizontal forces on that tiny bit of investment. Some says Microstar investment are stronger, never tried it myself though.

As for cad vs press, I really like the press. Have been milling some cad cases and the margins are noe good. Press is incredible accurate. Also there is a difference in the strengt of the material. Scientific report states press to be 400 mpa +- 40mpa, while cad is 360 +- 60 mpa. Add in poor milling strategies and handling, and I think I´ve read it can go as low as about 250 mpa.
 
Gru

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Dean,

If your lab can afford milled emax, I guess it's fine.

Pressing is still better: better margins, better control of contour. As you probably know there are endless posts on getting your pressing right. An ep3000 should not cause problems unless it need calibrated. Get your Ivoclar rep to come in and help you- they want to sell you the stuff to press with!
 
rkm rdt

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I have no time to press.

I love cad and the margins are fine.No reaction layer and the fit is perfect

360 mpa is plenty for anteriors ( how many of you were Empress users?) If you are really concerned about strength, you can split file an Emax cad over a zir coping and cyrstalize it.


I only press veneers and inlays.
 
Gru

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rkm, could you post a pic of a pre-sintered emax cad on die so I can see the new quality of the margins? Could be educational for me!
 
rkm rdt

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I have some coming in on tuesday so I'd be happy to.

Don't let me forget.
 
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dhdc

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I guess thats the thing,if you can design and get them milled it is much quicker,which frees up more time to do other things.Sprue,invest,press,de-vest,acid,re sandblast,cut off,fit,can be time consuming.I will be interested to see how well the milled fit.
Any tips on trimming them up in the purple state?
 
rkm rdt

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I guess thats the thing,if you can design and get them milled it is much quicker,which frees up more time to do other things.Sprue,invest,press,de-vest,acid,re sandblast,cut off,fit,can be time consuming.I will be interested to see how well the milled fit.
Any tips on trimming them up in the purple state?

Get the right wheels and disks ( can't remember the names right now) to trim/reduce/cutback etc and it's quite easy.

Once it's cystalized you can do your incisal bakes and staining all you want.

Although I pay a bit more for cad, I don't have to pay an extra salary or tie up money in inventory.

The key to outsourceing this way is to charge accordingly. If you are in a price war then this may not be the best route.
 
Tom Moore

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We do less pressed every day.

A small operation with very experienced techs IMO can do a better job on form, function and esthetic's using press. Fit I give to Cad.

The cad takes up much of the slack in a step worker environment and allows a much more consistent fit and better overall quality product than they can do with pressed. For larger operations it is allowing them to climb the ladder of the type of accounts they attract. YEA! CAD.

Small labs sell their ability to be amenable to deviation to fit the need of the case and large labs depend on a set standard and no deviations to allow them to compete on price and service time. Like God made us all different sizes and Sam Colt made us all the same hight looking down the sites I think like it or not that is what cad is doing in this industry.
 
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paulg100

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"I only press veneers and inlays."

why not cad for inlays and veneers ?
 
NicelyMKV

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We do less pressed every day.

A small operation with very experienced techs IMO can do a better job on form, function and esthetic's using press. Fit I give to Cad.

The cad takes up much of the slack in a step worker environment and allows a much more consistent fit and better overall quality product than they can do with pressed. For larger operations it is allowing them to climb the ladder of the type of accounts they attract. YEA! CAD.

Small labs sell their ability to be amenable to deviation to fit the need of the case and large labs depend on a set standard and no deviations to allow them to compete on price and service time. Like God made us all different sizes and Sam Colt made us all the same hight looking down the sites I think like it or not that is what cad is doing in this industry.

Your saying CAD fits better than pressed?
 
RileyS

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I loved working with cad; soft in blue state, cuts out lots of time of pressing steps, and the cad LT looks better than press LT and not as low value as HT so kinda in between. If you're outsourcing the milling then no inventory to keep up/worry about.
I love spending 12-15 minutes scanning and designing then another 5 in seating, 2 minutes staining in blue state and crystalizing and I'm done unless a slight adjustment in shade is needed. So 20-24 minutes in man hours. I've never done the math to see exact costs and time on both sides (a job for RKM and Tom instead of us lazy's) but I like the free time that cad creates.
Rkm, Can you share your costs from Diadem?
 
ts4341

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CAD would be nice, press does take a lot of time.. Critical steps for emax pressing are temp & sprue placement & direction... I had a few CAD emax outsourced and they fit nice and the blue state was easy to add more depth in the anatomy.. Def, faster Crystallization, stain and glaze.
 
Tom Moore

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Your saying CAD fits better than pressed?

As you know I am not a bench tech I deal with numbers. The pressed and cad run very close in fit deviations but cad has a slight edge for us anyway. The nice thing about cad is I can set the fit parameters and adjust them until I get the fit I want for a particular customer. Its not just load it up and turn the mill lose.

The occlusal anatomy is my favorite about the cad on posteriors. For us the amount of training time for a tech to turn out some very nice work is much shorter than with wax or a wet brush
 
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Tom Moore

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"I only press veneers and inlays."

why not cad for inlays and veneers ?

If I ever get ask to do any.......not one in the last two years and we turn some units. My labor cost would let me do them both ways just to see which one fit best. I just don't see it as a big seller for us but you watch I'll get in 10 of them on Monday. What would you suggest pressed of cad?
 
NicelyMKV

NicelyMKV

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As you know I am not a bench tech I deal with numbers. The pressed and cad run very close in fit deviations but cad has a slight edge for us anyway. The nice thing about cad is I can set the fit parameters and adjust them until I get the fit I want for a particular customer. Its not just load it up and turn the mill lose.

The occlusal anatomy is my favorite about the cad on posteriors. For us the amount of training time for a tech to turn out some very nice work is much shorter than with wax or a wet brush

My problem was the quality of margin I get often on cases. A lot of up and down. I had some slight issues with marginal fit via cad compared to pressed. We mill wax posteriors and press. I felt like I got slightly better occlusal anatomy and fits due to the way wax can be milled compares to Emax CAD. I assumed the numbers were better milling wax and pressing compared to milling cad? Im asking not stating. :)

Jason
 
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grili

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RileyS what cadcam do you use? What about the cost? Regards
 

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