Discussion in 'Dental-CAM' started by dentek1, Feb 9, 2016.
I see that requires a material commitment, do you have details?
the material and cutter commitment isnt a dealbreaker imo.
they sell you sagemax for zirconia, and who really cares what kind of wax and pmma they rope you into. the cutters also match the machine.
arguably you would WANT whoever you buy the machine from to offer you the same deal.
I agree if it was in the UK I would be very interested
You should really consider companies that are producing 2nd and or 3rd generation mills. There is a lot for a mill manufacturer to learn through putting several hundred mill into the market. Once in the market the weaknesses come out. Next generation machines are designed to fix the problems of the earlier models. That said, i think you should also check out the Roland DWX-51D (2nd generation mill) and the AG Mikro 5 (alos 2nd gen) mills.
The Mikro is likely the smallest 5 axis mill available if space is limited. Also got a new super fast spindle to reduce mill time. Roland is likely the most widely sold mill in the US and you never hear of unhappy customers.
For the products we sell (zirconia, tooling, PMMA, wax etc.), the commitment would be to purchase that which you use with the versamill be purchased from us during the first year of operation. There is no volume commitment.
Be careful with claims of fast spindles and mill times. True, faster rpm's can result in faster milling times however they REQURE faster milling feed rates which in reality, only POTENTIALLY yield faster milling times.
However rpm is not really the issue or the whole story in determining milling times as spindle torque, machine construction, milling strategies and machining parameters are of more significant importance.
Its also important to note that RPM, power and torque ratings should only be considered valid if the rating stated is the CONTINUAOUS power and torque rating at a give rpm and NOT the maximum rating (as is the common practice with dental milling machines).
Power and torque are usually lower at high rpm and when cutting faster (SFM) as required, more torque is required from the spindle motor and if not available will stall the machine. This is particularly important when machining PMMA, model materials and metal.
More importantly, the machine weight, frame type/material, part fixturing etc. need to be solid, vibration and heat absorbing. If they are not, milling times would also not decrease as the final restorations would exhibit margin problems (chipping, open, etc. with possibly thicker margin reinforcement), finish surface quality issues and excess tool wear. These undesirable by-products of pushing the machine beyond that which its construction is capable of producing (in terms of quality of finished product) would result in slowing the machine down by decreasing machining feed rates (and necessarily spindle speed) to achieve acceptable final restoration quality.
Short high feed rate moves generate a lot of inertia and corresponding vibration. Most, if not all small-framed, lightweight machines will exhibit excessive vibration during a machining cycle. This can be verified by placing your hand, a coin or cup of water on the machine while it is machining. All those vibrations you see and feel are being transferred to the cutting tool and the part being machined resulting in less than optimal restoration quality and tool life.
These points are discussed on our website as well as in our "Questions to Ask BEFORE you Buy a CNC Dental Mill" check list which you can review HERE.
This list abbreviates some of the key issues discussed in our "Guide to understanding the key construction characteristics of a quality CNC dental mill" whitepaper which provides an in-depth understanding of the features, functions and benefits of key construction elements.
The full whitepaper is available for your review HERE.
We did some head-to-head testing on some of the more popular "2nd and 3rd generation machines" and this is what we saw based on actual machining of the same crown on the latest machine configuration with the latest tooling and machining templates as provided by the distributor. No names just images. Your mileage of course may vary, however these tests and images illustrate the point.
I think if you want a small mill that does everything from Zi Cocr ti pmma wax lithium discilicate full arch you need to look at the m1 wet heavy from zirkonzahn they have lent me an m1 for 5 months now i mill ti bars most days it has not stopped from the moment i received it .i cant believe what the little bugger can do .i have checked with colleges that have had m1s a fair bit longer than me and they have the same positive experience.I would by one of these over a versamill vhf ceramill or roland any day
That's a very well written paper, more informative than anything I've seen from dental resellers so far... however you're comparing apples to oranges when discussing rotary axii. You're right on zero stack configuration, but can't really compare a small frame mill's rotary setup to an industrial trunnion, which weights prolly more than a 5X-200...even though a HAAS is considered an entry level on the industrial scale, will still outperform a small mill cutting metal any given day...
There's nothing wrong with trunnions...that's the standard industrial 5 axis setup, even on the high end machining centers...
Thanks Zero. I agree with you, there is absolutely nothing wrong with trunnions. In the industrial side of our business they represent by far the largest portion of our multi-axis milling applications - far more than nutating or rotary head machines. The issue for the dental market is stack-tolerance.
We've been serving the industrial market and partnering with Haas providing CAD/CAM solutions for over 20 years.for just about any application you can think of. We know quite a bit about their machines. The biggest problem I see with them in terms of rotary function is size, weight, fixturing and stacking of axes/ and axes tolerances. I have yet to see an out-of-the-box configuration with fixture for the dental market that I would want to distribute and support.
Take a look at the image below. It shows just one example of the overly-stacked configurations that are out there with different rotational vectors and centers (what a mess) as compared to our zero-stack trunnion and fixture implementation. In this case weight is more a problem, calibration problematic and overall machining speed reduced due to large circumferential diameter limiting overall machining feed rate.
What I have seen are basically home-grown solutions developed by clever users/shops with CNC and manufacturing experience- which is just fine... for them. I have no doubt that you have engineered a good solution to meet your needs. Heck well before our versamill I looked pretty deeply at partnering with our local Haas distributor and Haas Automation to develop a solution before determining it was not a good way to go for us.
I have to say as well that I can see how the Haas could out-perform the majority of the current dental machining centers out there today. However our machines are very different than these machines. We have actually been bench-marked against them and in terms of speed and quality, our 5X200 has proven to out-perform these Haas machines in machining dental restorations of titanium and cobalt chrome.
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