Best CAD/CAM system for Emax?

[GoldRunner]

What is the best way to efficiently produce Emax? Pressing gives us great results, but it is time consuming to hand wax everything. The sample millings and designs from a well known/established company have been very disappointing and not cost effective. I would be open to milling Emax, but I have not seen any outsource/system that provides acceptable milled results.

I would like to have the ability to mill wax/resin patterns for full contour and frameworks. The system would only have to produce up to 20 units a day of a combination of full contour, and frameworks. Maybe Mark J. could share some ideas about the system he uses?

Thanks

 

[paulg100]

If you want milled emax that is close to pressed results then find somewhere thats milling with Roeders.

As far as i am aware, they are the only mills getting close to pressed results at the moment.

The table top units are a waste of time.

 

[charles007]

Table Top.......so funny..........
Just for the record, d4d at their table(ZAHN) AT LMT LAST WEEKEND, didn't have a die to see the fits of milling with their machine....FUNNY !!! AND PRETTY DAMN PATHETIC

 

[GoldRunner]

Just sell me a CAD/CAM system that really works!

That is a big problem. How do you truly evaluate a system without purchasing it? The table tops would be great if they produced what you wanted. Some claim they can get excellent results with them. Others prove that they can't by showing me samples of work that would never be clinically acceptable.

That is why I am relying on someone with real world experience to be a mentor in the decision making process for the next scanner and milling machine I buy.

 

[charles007]

That is a big problem. How do you truly evaluate a system without purchasing it? The table tops would be great if they produced what you wanted. Some claim they can get excellent results with them. Others prove that they can't by showing me samples of work that would never be clinically acceptable.

That is why I am relying on someone with real world experience to be a mentor in the decision making process for the next scanner and milling machine I buy.

Either mill or print wax patterns and press/ save of $$$ over buying blocks for emax.
I'm buying a 800lb mill that will mill emax, and I know it want mill emax as good as my 9K+ pressing oven. Rush cases with ideal preps, maybe ?
Check with B&D on milling emax with their machines......

 

[AGV]

DATRON D5 Dental CAM-DATRON AG


What do you think about this?:

 

[charles007]

DATRON D5 Dental CAM�-�DATRON AG


What do you think about this?:

YEP, THATS SWEET.

I checked into that system months ago.....not cheap.

 

[charles007]

I think the most practical way to produce emax at this time is an experienced tech with a scannner and printer, or mill for lower production, in a production setting.. There's nothing wrong in milling wax, just more expensive wax.

 

[Mark Jackson]

Material costs for milled eMax: $29.83 per unit avg
Material cost for pressing eMax: $7.96 per unit avg

Labor time=same

Selling price=the same

Any other questions?

 

[amadent]

That is a big problem. How do you truly evaluate a system without purchasing it? The table tops would be great if they produced what you wanted. Some claim they can get excellent results with them. Others prove that they can't by showing me samples of work that would never be clinically acceptable.

That is why I am relying on someone with real world experience to be a mentor in the decision making process for the next scanner and milling machine I buy.

i can only speak about the system we have- Dental Wings- thay offer training in colorado during the training you sign the final paperwork forthe system-if you dont like it you dont but it
Zahn will also let you test drive the dental wings now before you purchase itpopcorn

 

[amadent]

Material costs for milled eMax: $29.83 per unit avg
Material cost for pressing eMax: $7.96 per unit avg

Labor time=same

Selling price=the same

Any other questions?

and as usaul the genius labs in our lovely field are giving the milled Emax away for less $ then the press
does this make any sense to anyone- I THINK NOT

Mark
as always thank you for breaking it down to dollars and cents

Greg Amendola MDT

 

[charles007]

CHECK OUT THE JUST RELEASED ROLAND 5 AXIS MILL... GREAT IDEA/PRICE, TO MILL WAX AND ZIRCONIA...

 

[JohnWilson]

Material costs for milled eMax: $29.83 per unit avg
Material cost for pressing eMax: $7.96 per unit avg

Labor time=same

Selling price=the same

Any other questions?

Mark how do you calculate that the labor time is the same for waxing vs CAD?

Are you calculating direct hands on tech time?

We have been real happy with what we are getting from Nobel I am going to do a post next week with a molar that we did with good macro photography of the same case pressed and milled. Should be pretty eye opening

 

[charles007]

John, how are the margins compared to press on feather edge margins, or anything less than ideal preps ?

In your lab, what do the numbers look like when you consider the extra labor in pressing over designing-scanner, firing etc with cad.

 

[paulg100]

Any idea what mills Nobel are using?

 

[JohnWilson]

John, how are the margins compared to press on feather edge margins, or anything less than ideal preps ?

In your lab, what do the numbers look like when you consider the extra labor in pressing over designing-scanner, firing etc with cad.

Still just auditioning GOOD PREPS. Have to be fair but the good preps are way better than what has been reported.

As for what mills, if they are using 5 axis for the abutments I am certain the morphology of the design library for EMAX necessitates a 5 axis machine. I will ask my procera rep which mill it is.

If I know Nobel its a big buck machine

 

[GoldRunner]

Great responses so far. My waxer hates my guts for switching most of our zirconia to Emax. I still need a quick solution! The only advantage to milling Emax is that you could scan and finish a crown in a few hours, but at a higher material cost, and inferior margins. Pressing uses lots of investment, is time and labor intensive, but probably gives the best overall results.

Have had some candid conversations with Ivoclar tech reps about milling Emax, and none are thrilled with it, even with the "high end aerospace quality" milling machines. They say just send a sample to "X" and see what you think. . .milled Emax is not for everybody.

I was not impressed with infinident's printed material so that is probably not an option.

If anyone has a wax mill they would like to part with lets talk! Hopefully Mark is working quickly on retrofitting the Roland mills. . .right MARK?

 

[Ncm]

A couple days ago a few Nobel reps had stopped by ( they only show up when they want to sell you something) to let us know that they now mill emax crowns thats designed in our NobelProcera system. As excited as we were to think that this may have solved our time consuming waxing and pressing situation, we were hard hit by reality. At the moment Nobels software for full contour emax design is very slow, its very glitchy, and when errors happen the software doesnt even tell you where the errors are. Has anyone else ran into this problem yet? In theory this would be a great solution for turn around time on single units once the design software is all worked out, in the mean time its back to the waxer.

 

[GoldRunner]

I feel your pain. Nobel pushed me to buy a new scanner before the end of 09 but none of their promises ever materialized. That was over a year ago and they still don't have the bugs worked out. Really leaning toward
3Shape and whatever else it takes (like a wax mill).

 

[Ncm]

09 was around the same time we got our procera scanner also, since then its slowly made improvments such as finally being able to scan and design bars in house rather then sending it to Biocad in Canada, it took a year for them to let us to be able to do that. 3Shape is great designer software, its a very powerful system to design with and if not, the best designer out there with every option, the only downside is theres just to much to know on the software and can boggle the mind.