At what point do you need to purchase a Miling unit and Scanner??

[zero_zero]

He'll come up here...will have major labor shortages when all the baby boomers retire...
Edit: ...we already have...I'm chasing contractors around to finish my new office for the last two months...

 

[2thm8kr]

@00
I figured that was something you would do yourself in your spare time.

 

[zero_zero]

Spare time ??? What is that 2th ? A ten day week wouldn't be enough for me...

 

[Mohammad Khair]

i hated to be overloaded , i stop thinking.

 

[BobCDT]

Loads of different opinions in this thread. The fact that the number of milling centers has grown dramatically over the last five years while the number of labs has gone down is an indication there is good money to be made at the prices milling centers charge. That said, if your outsourcing any significant quantity of work you are sending potential profits to someone else. If you want to keep it simple, are happy with your current income and don't care to make more money outsourcing may be right for you.

 

[Mohammad Khair]

Loads of different opinions in this thread. The fact that the number of milling centers has grown dramatically over the last five years while the number of labs has gone down is an indication there is good money to be made at the prices milling centers charge. That said, if your outsourcing any significant quantity of work you are sending potential profits to someone else. If you want to keep it simple, are happy with your current income and don't care to make more money outsourcing may be right for you.

before 8 years and if my milling center did a good job i would not go for cad/cam system.
being a master ceramist you can get better reward for time than being a beginner cad/cam man.
so its about the use of time.
and what u feel comfortable with.
my old milling center was a headache, many substructure were under quality.
so i bought a scanner, but yet my problem not solved, the milling center use ugly zircon.
so i have to go totally digital my self.
if i had a good milling partner i would be so happy and so rich too because simply i can double my build ups and i would not mind to give the milling partner a 50% of the extra build ups, i still have 50% more income without any investment.
my case would fit better small labs.
big milling centers and big labs has a totally different stories.

 

[Mohammad Khair]

to be honest i can triple my buildups, and with the zircon tsunami at that time you really would be rich within no time.
remember my inceram sh!t and how long it had to take before you get a substructure and yet no bridges.

 

[2thm8kr]

Loads of different opinions in this thread. The fact that the number of milling centers has grown dramatically over the last five years while the number of labs has gone down is an indication there is good money to be made at the prices milling centers charge. That said, if your outsourcing any significant quantity of work you are sending potential profits to someone else. If you want to keep it simple, are happy with your current income and don't care to make more money outsourcing may be right for you.

Or, we can let labs such as yours bear the cost of high tech milling machines and shop around for the competent ones and use them for the fabrication of materials we are not interested making it ourselves.
Things and times change, so we'll see, but at this time I don't have the time to produce zirconia. My profits are better made elsewhere.

 

[Big Guy]

Call Sam at CAP and go for it..... Yeah there is a learning curve just like there is with anything but once you get you'll be glad you did it! Don't listen to the guys who aren't milling Zirconia listen to the guys that are.. We have 2 scanners and 2 mills (3 shape and DWX50s) and it's the best thing we've done for our lab!

 

[rkm rdt]

Who prints your models Big guy?
Does your dwx50 mill abutments too?

 

[Mohammad Khair]

ok simple answer.
if you have a professional milling center close to you and you have no extra money to invest then keep outsourcing.

if you don't have a good milling center near by, and have some extra money to invest. then buying a cad cam system should be the best investment for you. cause the quality of your work is the best investment in the long run.

 

[AltreX]

cad design for 5 units(normal and easy crown and bridge) will take an hour from an expert cad designer.
beginners will need more time.
an average cad designer will do 30-40 units a day, with a proper design that will pass the quality check, that time includes the cam nesting and software processing and don't forget the fitting which may need more experience and time than that most of you expect.

however, it could be more or less depending basically on the system the cad software and the experience of the cad man.

of course you understand and count it on such factors as scanning & milling equipment, software, ordinary cases with "wax ups" and complicated case that need work time from orthodontic, surgical, orthopedic specialists. Good then people provide whole infos needed and CAD and CAM guys can just implement whole idee in no time... Or else you can stick that 5 unit bridge to dark and warm place

 

[TheLabGuy]

Yes its much easier to outsource but the hard stuff, being on the cutting edge, is what can make businesses go from "Okay" to great. Have passion and own what you do!

"okay", I will tick someone off here with this comment but lets be real for a second. It takes months to learn the in-outs of scanning and designing, and to say different means the truth isn't in you. Then once you learn that, you have to learn the milling software, add in those variables with the machine itself and it could be a full year where everything is running smoothly like you want. If I were just starting, I'd get a scanner, take the months to learn that, then once you have that down, feel comfortable, then reaccess into the milling side of it and what you want to mill. It's one thing to say have passion, own what you do, but until that person pays my payroll, will I give them a seat at my board table. Being smart is owning what you do, and leave the passion for the bedroom

 

[TheLabGuy]

That said, if your outsourcing any significant quantity of work you are sending potential profits to someone else. If you want to keep it simple, are happy with your current income and don't care to make more money outsourcing may be right for you.

Have to disagree with you Bob, I outsource so much metal, that I get my zirconia at such a reduced price that there is no way on Gods green earth I could even come close to doing it for the price they are giving me. Which brings up two points...if you're already scanning everything in your lab, why wouldn't you outsource your metal? Quality is better (induction casting),cost analysis shows you can save yourself time, labor, money, and your Doctors money. The other point is, some of the large milling centers do so much zirconia they can get the pucks for pennies on the dollar where as you pay the full price for a puck. Everyone talks about ROI, ROI this, ROI that...if you've really spent any time at the bench you will come very familiar with the term ROT - Return On Time. Time is something we give up everyday, you don't get it back, and to be honest...why do I want to give any of that up to be hovering around a twelve thousand dollar sintering oven or a bucket of stains while its costing me more to do it. Be smart out there folks.

 

[Mohammad Khair]

i can do the ti base and it has a potential profit,
i will need one year and a lathe that cost near 30k
but i still have to operate it and to cad design it and to implant it in the cad designer software.
this is not the proper way of investment.
if i have 300k i will bring 6 axis automatic lathe a cad designer and lathe operator at that point i can said i have a good investment.
nobody is doing everything by himself or by his workshop unless he has no other choices.
if i can't find a good ti base for a good price, and the market need it, and i have only 30 k
then i am forced to go for the first option.

 

[rkm rdt]

Rob makes an excellent point about time.

I see it the same way as well. In fact I can take advantage of the 3 hour time zone difference by sending to the west coast ( est - pst) .

I can make far more money sending extra files from my Trios scans than I could milling zir.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

rob's only repeating what ive been saying - a year to learn the ins and outs.

editd to add: rkm do take into consideration that argen has moved state side for all their manufacturing.

 

[Big Guy]

Who prints your models Big guy?
Does your dwx50 mill abutments too?

We haven't had any requests for fabricating crowns with a scanned imp. therefore we aren't having any models printed. And no my DWX50 doesn't mill abutments........ But that's next on the list!

 

[NicelyMKV]

My issues when I tried outsourcing previously-

Late returned cases

Shades off a mile

Rushed or incorrect sintering producing opacious crowns

Cracks in crowns

Bridges not fitting... At all

Pretty much get what they give you.

No time to redo case when they show up like above

No way to quickly reproduce a unit if an internal problem occurs

Hand waxing due to too high a cost for printed or mixed wax. ( paying for a re print or re mill if you have a mis press)

Doctors knowing you are outsourcing your work. My doctors love the fact I am doing it myself.

And so on

Just my two cents

 

[Big Guy]

"okay", I will tick someone off here with this comment but lets be real for a second. It takes months to learn the in-outs of scanning and designing, and to say different means the truth isn't in you. Then once you learn that, you have to learn the milling software, add in those variables with the machine itself and it could be a full year where everything is running smoothly like you want. If I were just starting, I'd get a scanner, take the months to learn that, then once you have that down, feel comfortable, then reaccess into the milling side of it and what you want to mill. It's one thing to say have passion, own what you do, but until that person pays my payroll, will I give them a seat at my board table. Being smart is owning what you do, and leave the passion for the bedroom

Where do you get your information from? Your milling center??? It doesn't take anywhere near a year to get things dialed in! We were up and running in a half a day and with all the support out there the learning curve is small.... I'm not saying there weren't any bumps in the road but it really isn't that difficult...... The main reason we stopped out sourcing was so that we had more control over the product going out the door. Im not going to be at the mercy of a milling center, heck if I wanted to I could become a milling center...... Hummm....