Anyone casting to TI interface?

charles hallam cdt

charles hallam cdt

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image.jpg Porcelain fired nice no signs of cracking.
 
charles hallam cdt

charles hallam cdt

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Experimenting on things not going into an unwilling uninformed patient's mouth would be a place to start.
Both parties are informed. Mentioned that earlier
 
charles hallam cdt

charles hallam cdt

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That doesn't make it a success. Just keep your eyes on this one.
Agree success might not b rite word. Give it a few years than maybe success. But don't wort pts name on my bench lite
 
Andrew Priddy

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first off, I don't understand why you would want to cast directly to Ti anyway... just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
ok, you cut retention grooves, but I can guarantee there will be micro movement. also, as mentioned, there will be an oxide layer that will be eroded out with the patients morning orange juice, further opening a gap, and further movement..

from a time and materials standpoint this makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever.. it took longer to cut the retention, polish the tibase after firing, than it would to bond a correctly fabricated restoration... I just simply don't understand why this would be done form a "cost" prospective.

when I do things on restorations in the Lab that i'm not comfortable with, it's because it's one of those cases where there are no other options, and I am certain I have done everything I can before it goes out the door.

ethically, our goal is to restore and preserve a patients oral health.. that's primary. I too loose sight of that sometimes, but it's times like "now" that center me again
 
charles hallam cdt

charles hallam cdt

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Gl
first off, I don't understand why you would want to cast directly to Ti anyway... just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
ok, you cut retention grooves, but I can guarantee there will be micro movement. also, as mentioned, there will be an oxide layer that will be eroded out with the patients morning orange juice, further opening a gap, and further movement..

from a time and materials standpoint this makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever.. it took longer to cut the retention, polish the tibase after firing, than it would to bond a correctly fabricated restoration... I just simply don't understand why this would be done form a "cost" prospective.

when I do things on restorations in the Lab that i'm not comfortable with, it's because it's one of those cases where there are no other options, and I am certain I have done everything I can before it goes out the door.

ethically, our goal is to restore and preserve a patients oral health.. that's primary. I too loose sight of that sometimes, but it's times like "now" that center me again
glad I could help
 
Tom Moore

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Both parties are informed. Mentioned that earlier

Charles I'm sorry you are meeting such strong resistance here for your case plan. Keep in mind most of these guys have a ton of experience doing implants. Did my first implant case on blades in 74'.

Being informed by those that are supposed to know and being INFORMED are two different things. Expecting the dentists and especially the patient to have any idea of what you are doing and are giving you "INFORMED" consent are just not there in this case.

We use 510k materials as the manufacture suggests in their GMP's (good manufacturing practice) not voodoo science being done by people with a AS degree at best in a dental lab on live patients.

You offer only anecdotal evidence. That is like saying I never stop at red lights and have never had a ticket and never had an accident so my conclusion is running red lights is just fine.

There is nothing wrong with excepting you overstepped and learning from it. We all have done this and its part of maturing into a great dental technician.
 
charles hallam cdt

charles hallam cdt

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I am not saying this is the way I plan on fabricating all my screw retained crowns. I respect all opinions here. But they are just that opinions. We all have our educated theories of which we base our conclusions on. We all try to follow manufactures protocol and a lot of times find ourselves tweekn there directions because there is a better way to do it. I've been in the business long enough to know that not everything is set in stone. Ha ha get it. Set in stone.
 
Andrew Priddy

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glad I could help
look, i'm not judging you. i'm simply stating some facts. the bottom line, is there is an easier, more cost effective and better way to do this.
I've had people on this forum tell me the exact same things about the way I've done a few cases. I didn't like it. but if I didn't respect others opinions and knowledge then I wouldn't be here. By all accounts, i'm a fairly "new" technician that's had to learn quickly, typically by mistakes.

you might ask yourself "why" you are the only one that thinks this is a good idea. don't think for a second that the Dr or patient in this case have a clue about the technical aspects.

my point has been, that there is a better and "safer" way to get this done:
  • wax and cast separately, and bond the final restoration to the Ti base
  • Design in CAD and send it out for SLM, bond the final to the Ti Base
both scenarios are a better, easier way to get this done
 
CatamountRob

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I am not saying this is the way I plan on fabricating all my screw retained crowns. I respect all opinions here. But they are just that opinions. We all have our educated theories of which we base our conclusions on. We all try to follow manufactures protocol and a lot of times find ourselves tweekn there directions because there is a better way to do it. I've been in the business long enough to know that not everything is set in stone. Ha ha get it. Set in stone.
It's not a matter of opinion Charles, there is a very good reason that UCLA abutments are not made of titanium. Not everything is a conspiracy by big manufacturers to force you to pay more.
 
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I am not saying this is the way I plan on fabricating all my screw retained crowns. I respect all opinions here. But they are just that opinions. We all have our educated theories of which we base our conclusions on. We all try to follow manufactures protocol and a lot of times find ourselves tweekn there directions because there is a better way to do it. I've been in the business long enough to know that not everything is set in stone. Ha ha get it. Set in stone.
Charles, what burnout temp ave you used for overcasting this Ti base? What alloy have you used and what porcelain have you baked to it?
 
charles hallam cdt

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Charles, what burnout temp ave you used for overcasting this Ti base? What alloy have you used and what porcelain have you baked to it?
1675f burnout. Penceram 06 alloy. Synspar porc.
 
charles hallam cdt

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It's not a matter of opinion Charles, there is a very good reason that UCLA abutments are not made of titanium. Not everything is a conspiracy by big manufacturers to force you to pay more.
May I ask what the good reason is.i would then ask why they make engaging and non engaging. Mechanical retention maybe.
 
2thm8kr

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Engaging for single units or multiple cement retained.
Non-engaging for multiple screw retained.
Nothing to do with mechanical retention.
 
Tom Moore

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Perhaps another case of if all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.

Skimming over the FACT the dentist and patient have no idea of what sort of voodoo you are doing is why we just don't have the chops to go cowboy on things put into the mouth.
 
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May I ask what the good reason is.i would then ask why they make engaging and non engaging. Mechanical retention maybe.[/QUOTE
1675f burnout. Penceram 06 alloy. Synspar porc.
hi Charles so you have burnout above 882, oxide and porcelain firing above that temp as well. You have changed the mechanical properties of Ti . No one would bond to Ti if cast/ press was ok.
BTW have you ever made a bridge with engaging components? Probably not or you would not ask that question.
 
charles hallam cdt

charles hallam cdt

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every time we put a tourch to our alloys we change the physical and mechanical properties of that alloy which is why we add fresh alloy to every cast. The only complaint I see here is that I'm casting instead of bonding to the interface. So if a bond failure occurs it's ok because we followed directions. If someone has evidence that by heating Ti now turns into a cancer causing metal this discussion would be over
 
charles hallam cdt

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Once again I would like to reintegrate that I do respect and thank you all for your discussion on this subject
 
2thm8kr

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Do you ever read the physical properties charts of any of your materials?
Do you know what the CTE is of the grade of titanium you are using?
Does it match your alloy?
Zero gave you a great explanation of what happens to the surface of titanium when brining it to burnout temperature.
Andrew gave a great example of how it could be affected in the patients mouth.
UCLA abutments do not have a titanium interface. The interface is gold and platinum alloy. Why is that you ask? Because platinum does not form an oxide layer at these temperatures and when you cast to it you get a chemical bond.
Of course the physical properties change any time you heat alloy, that is why the manufacturers add trace elements to the alloy. These burn out with each casting, hence adding new alloy to every casting. If you don't add alloy and keep casting the same button you will run into CTE problems.
 
charles hallam cdt

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Do you ever read the physical properties charts of any of your materials?
Do you know what the CTE is of the grade of titanium you are using?
Does it match your alloy?
Zero gave you a great explanation of what happens to the surface of titanium when brining it to burnout temperature.
Andrew gave a great example of how it could be affected in the patients mouth.
UCLA abutments do not have a titanium interface. The interface is gold and platinum alloy. Why is that you ask? Because platinum does not form an oxide layer at these temperatures and when you cast to it you get a chemical bond.
Of course the physical properties change any time you heat alloy, that is why the manufacturers add trace elements to the alloy. These burn out with each casting, hence adding new alloy to every casting. If you don't add alloy and keep casting the same button you will run into CTE problems.
yes I understand which is why I'm not relying on the chemical bond as there is none. That's why I put mechanical retention in
 

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