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8 Venners Over Discolored Teeth

Discussion in 'Case Presentations' started by Al., Feb 1, 2010.

  1. Al.

    Al. Well-Known Member

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    This patient presented to the Dr like this.


    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv.jpg

    The Dr. gave me .75 mm of reduction.


    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv1.jpg


    The patient is a male and his teeth are a bit flared.

    Dr asked for final shade of BL4.
    He asked for incisal character and ware.
    He wants no grey showing through.

    I just finished and shipped it off today. I photo documented every step.
    I'll post it up as I get time.

    I did it in Emax. Anybody have any guess what ingot I choose.
    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv.jpg ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv1.jpg
  2. Al.

    Al. Well-Known Member

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    The prep shade is close to ND8 so I use a matching die spacer to help make the final shade predictable.

    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv2.jpg
    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv2.jpg
  3. TheLabGuy

    TheLabGuy Just a Member

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    Al,
    I'm thinking HO ingots because of the different shades you're dealing with. This almost looks like a Tetracycline patient. Do you have a lingual photo, I'd love to see your clients prep lingually (doesn't appear that he went very far over the incisal).

    Where did you get the different die spacer (great idea!!!!!) shades. I actually had an assistant call me a few weeks back and say that the shade on her e.max crown was really yellow...........I had to inform her to take it off the model (I use yellow die spacer....lol)
  4. Wyolab

    Wyolab Member Donator

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    Did you have to use LT ingots for this? I would like to start using Emax so I really appreciate the posts.
  5. Al.

    Al. Well-Known Member

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    Hey Rob, I love the die spacer it saves alot of guess work and trial and error with shades.

    Its "Smart Spacer" die spacer kit, George Taub products. I got it from Zahn.
    It kind of seems like model air plane paint. Like the military model colors. it smells like it.

    I would hate to try venners using HO. What a nightmare to try to tone that down.

    Wyo, I was tempted to use BL1 LT and make it thick but I think it would come out more like a C1 or mabey greyer.
    His temps are B1 and the brown goes right them.

    I decided to try pressing thin venners using MOO.

    Here is the wax up. My dipping wax, usually comes out at .4. I thickend it up in the middle.
    The waxups are between .4 to .7 in the thickest areas where the wax is the greenest and .4 where the wax is yellow.

    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv3.jpg

    Here is the lingual Rob.

    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv4.jpg
    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv3.jpg ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv4.jpg
  6. Travis
    Paranoid

    Travis Administrator Staff Member

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    I have a die spacer kit from leech and dillon that had vita shades. Unfortunately the kit is 7 years old now and all dried up. Does anyone know if they still have this kit availiable?

    Edit: Its called Cerpress Prep Color Kit

    Its listed on their site but no info on it.

    https://www.pattersondental.com/app.aspx?cmd=get_item&id=117721
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2010
  7. TheLabGuy

    TheLabGuy Just a Member

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    Their you go guys........make some die spacer that is exactly like the stump shades. Then you can sell it for a 100 dollars a bottle like Ivoclar most likely would.......Either way, I love the idea.
  8. charles007

    charles007 Well-Known Member

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    Al, I never ordered that die spacer,,,,,,is it worth buying ? good product ?


    Charles
  9. Al.

    Al. Well-Known Member

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    Hi OO7, I think it is worth it, it eliminates the need to use that natural die stuff that came with the system. I never did use it anyway.

    I think if you have a hobby shop near by you could take your stump shade guide in and pick up a couple of shades for alot cheaper. I think Tensor makes the model airplane or military paints.


    You cant carve these little wax patterns or they will warp and dont add a large amount to the center at a time or it will make your margins pull up.

    You must finish your margins exact. It would be a nightmare to finish down venner margins after it is pressed.

    After the margins are done I do not remove the pattern. I sprue it first and remove it using the sprue as a handle.

    It helps alot to cut your sprue at an angle where you attach it.
    Its almost a guarantee that the margins near the sprue will lift or shorten so I reseal them after the sprue cools.


    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv5.jpg
    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv6.jpg
    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv7.jpg

    Ill post more later, but Im a bit behind today.
    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv5.jpg ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv6.jpg ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv7.jpg
  10. TheLabGuy

    TheLabGuy Just a Member

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    Questions/Comments:
    ---Great tip about the die spacer/stump shades and going to your local Hobby Lobby with the stump shade guide in hand. I'll be doing that this weekend.......this is going to be fun, I love new techniques that make my life simpler

    --Watch that 007 Charles guy Al, he's a fiesty one....lol
    --Al, I know that's red margin wax you're sealing your margins with, but what kind is it? I'm using cornings right now.
    --What made you decide to not wax to full contour? then cut back? Are you afraid this might be more susceptible to chipping the incisal edges down the road? Now will you press 6 of those in a big ring at a time or do you do something different?
  11. v2thmaster

    v2thmaster Member

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    Al, thank you for a great tip. ND material is a killer, $50 per syringe... ouch. Ivoclar higher their price on ND material from last year more than 40% so using a die color in ND shades will definitely save some $$$ and time.
  12. Al.

    Al. Well-Known Member

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    I dont know what kind of wax it is I have had it for years and the lid is missing. I usually dont use margin wax. I always have used slaycrus medium for buildups and it has always done a good job on the margins also.
    I like the margin wax though and I think Ill order some but the red is hard to read because I mark my margins with a red pencil.

    I wont mark my margins with blue because the crowns on the model all look like they have a black ring.

    Because of the prep shades and because he wants them to look more natural and not Hollywood white I am treating this case like refractory made felspathic venners. Instead of a refactory model Im building it on what some call "thin press".
    After I thin them down they are like little peices of potato chips.
    I just want enough out of them to mask out the brown and to support the layering porc.
  13. Al.

    Al. Well-Known Member

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    I never used mine. They are probably dried up now. I never bought a light to cure it.
  14. TheLabGuy

    TheLabGuy Just a Member

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    No white wax up (full contour) then? You the man if this is the case. I always felt like I was flying blind without one. I'll post a case where the white wax up was done, very similar to this in a couple weeks. I'm still digesting your work............great stuff as usual. Your wife trained you well my jedi master...........:)
  15. Al.

    Al. Well-Known Member

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    No all 8 in one ring. Just like the spokes of a wheel , with them flared out.

    I weighed them to see if I could do it with just one ingot, they were around
    .4 g, the scales didnt show weight till I put the 3rd wax up on.

    This whole case is almost all labor. 1 ingot, stone, one monotrac base, 2 bags of investment and one way shipping (hopefully it wont come back).
    Probably $60 total for a $2000 case.

    But it is very labor intensive.

    At the course they recommended not to use debubblizer but there was lube in the patterns so I used it, I just blew it off well.



    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv8.jpg
    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv9.jpg
    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv8.jpg ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv9.jpg
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2010
  16. Al.

    Al. Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I had a wax up. But I didnt do it. This Dr sends me waxups and pics of the temps in the mouth.
    I dont know who does his wax ups.

    I normally use waxups, to make a matrix to use as a guide for length cut back etc.


    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_t1.jpg
    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_t1.jpg
  17. Al.

    Al. Well-Known Member

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    They pressed flawlessly.

    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv10.jpg


    They fit nice. They only had a couple of tiny bubbles. The margins were closed to 10x mag.
    They really have to fit perfectly with out adjustments because you cant be grinding on the inside of thin pressings.

    Any short areas you can add on later later.


    I thinned them down to .4 over the entire surface with a true turning green stone.

    I take it thinner though at the margin just short of the edge of the margin.
    Then I use a diamond impregnated rubber wheel to make the marginal edge flush with the die so I dont feel any catch.


    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv11.jpg
    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv10.jpg ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv11.jpg
  18. JohnWilson

    JohnWilson Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi Al,

    I find it very interesting to see how others do their work. Your EMAX has always sparked my attention as you seem to max out your ingot per press better than any of my techs. God knows its because YOU are paying for them and mine are not.

    I would never have attempted all 8 in one ring with one INGOT even if the scale said it would work :D.

    Did you use you auto devester on those thin ones?

    Great pictures as always, it will be a great case.
  19. Al.

    Al. Well-Known Member

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    Hey John, I used to use the autodevester for esthetic with no problem so I didnt worry about it for these.
    I havnt had any problems with it except during the summer when the humitity is high and I have to tap on the side of the canister if it quits picking up the glass beads.

    $25 an ingot adds up over a year. The frustrating thing is when you only have one crown to press for a particular shade, that is where you loose money.
    Or when you go just barely over the limit like when your wax ups weigh .8.

    I normally get 3 full contour crowns per ingot. That makes it around $8 or $9per unit plus a bag of investment and the glass beads. I usually go through 50# a month of glass beads.
  20. Al.

    Al. Well-Known Member

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    Next I paint glaze liquid over the entire facing. Then I stain the cervical yellow. I use the stains from my empress esthetic kit.

    I use yellow for the light shades because the B1 or the Bleach shades seem to come out a bit too dark and I am only trying to knock down the white from the MOO ingot.

    Then I add blue on the M & D line angles and I add some blue mammelons to break up the incisal edge of the copings. I dont want to stain the whole incisal tip because I have had it come out too grey.

    Keep the stains light. Error on the side of underdoing it or it will be a remake.
    It needs to be suttle all you are doing is knocking down some of the high value of the MOO and breaking up the out line of the coping.

    Next while it is still wet I dusted it with B1 Deep Dentin and blew off the
    excess. then check the inside for any particles.

    Next fire.


    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv12.jpg
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    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv14.jpg
    ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv12.jpg ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv13.jpg ai46.photobucket.com_albums_f116_CDLAB_tv14.jpg

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