It's not easy.

[Marcusthegladiator CDT]

So I have been playing with the porcelain on my new bench at home.
And to put in perspective my experience. Many many many years ago in Las Vegas, when I was done with the model work and metal frame. I would opaque with a salt and pepper technique, then layer a first bake with Ceramco. Then the boss took over from there. That is my only experience. But for 16 years I watched the ceramists do their thing. But now I know, it's not easy at all. I'm working on controlling the wet porcelain and building everything up in one bake. I'm impressed how easy some folks make it look. This technique as well as a final texture I think will be the hardest part. I was trying to learn the LiSi stratification from the manual, but what I was firing wasn't looking good. So finally I spent a few minutes with Peter Kouvaris and he explained to me where to put certain powders and why. And then yesterday I one baked a single central for play and everything fired where and the way I wanted to. So now I am going to take Peters advice and look at pictures of teeth, map out what colors I see, and attempt to duplicate the colors and stratification of the tooth in the picture. It's a lot of fun being able to do this at home on my own time. Netflix and build style.
But again, the wet wet wet build up technique is what I would like to perfect and the final texture.
How do you guys do it so well?

 

[Sda36]

So I have been playing with the porcelain on my new bench at home.
And to put in perspective my experience. Many many many years ago in Las Vegas, when I was done with the model work and metal frame. I would opaque with a salt and pepper technique, then layer a first bake with Ceramco. Then the boss took over from there. That is my only experience. But for 16 years I watched the ceramists do their thing. But now I know, it's not easy at all. I'm working on controlling the wet porcelain and building everything up in one bake. I'm impressed how easy some folks make it look. This technique as well as a final texture I think will be the hardest part. I was trying to learn the LiSi stratification from the manual, but what I was firing wasn't looking good. So finally I spent a few minutes with Peter Kouvaris and he explained to me where to put certain powders and why. And then yesterday I one baked a single central for play and everything fired where and the way I wanted to. So now I am going to take Peters advice and look at pictures of teeth, map out what colors I see, and attempt to duplicate the colors and stratification of the tooth in the picture. It's a lot of fun being able to do this at home on my own time. Netflix and build style.
But again, the wet wet wet build up technique is what I would like to perfect and the final texture.
How do you guys do it so well?

Tanaka Big Brush / One Bake Technique, you should easily find on youtube. You've just taken me back quite a while with your story. Enjoy mastering your materials!

 

[Dentalmike]

Hey Marcus.

Since you are practicing and playing. You don't have to fire everything you build. This will also help with developing a feel for moisture control, timing, placement and so on.

 

[Affinity]

my 2 cents... all your moisture is controlled in your brush.. so either its wet or dry.. too wet or too dry. porcelain too wet or too dry. You need a wet brush to pick up porcelain, and you need the porcelain to be wet.. but you have to control it with a tissue. Everyone has their own technique and it comes through experience, but theres a sweet spot, where the porcelain is not running on the coping or too dry. If its too dry the other layers wont homogenize together and you will get bubbles and voids and seperation. Experience is the best teacher. Most high end porcelain work with many layers is fired on several cycles and with GC this is totally possible.

 

[Car 54]

Maybe stating the obvious in this day and age, but a wet tray is a must for what you're looking for.

I've found the same thing, too, that to many porcelains just for the sake of "we can", can end up in looking like road kill.

 

[Tayebdental]

 

[Marcusthegladiator CDT]

I could fix a layer or two with a firing. But then I have trouble getting the next layer even, like the thin layer of FL dentin or thin layer of CLF dentin in the LiSi. So It's easier for me to get that thin layer over powder than a fixed build up. Also, the last two I fired with a self glaze came out way better than I had been. My texture settled just enough to not be too prominent, but it was still there. Yea I'm years away from being good at any of this, but I like the milestones. So I think were at about 10. I just need 9,990 more.

 

[Marcusthegladiator CDT]

Maybe stating the obvious in this day and age, but a wet tray is a must for what you're looking for.

I've found the same thing, too, that to many porcelains just for the sake of "we can", can end up in looking like road kill.

Ive got a MPF pallets that is working well with the mesh. And a few brushes that are working very well. But like you said, it's about that perfect in-between. So I am either constantly swabbing away with tissue, or spraying a mist of water/liquid on the build.

 

[Marcusthegladiator CDT]

Tanaka Big Brush / One Bake Technique, you should easily find on youtube. You've just taken me back quite a while with your story. Enjoy mastering your materials!

I'll go watch that. I like this one from OliverT . So wet yet so much control.

 

[rkm rdt]

Then there's the dry powder technique.
No waste and complete control.
Brush tips won't abrade and lasts forever.

 

[mptz]

I use this everyday no problem no waste can't understand why its not more popular my ceramic powers last forever.

 

[Affinity]

I have started dipping in the bottle too since Ive started 'micro' layering.

As for applying porcelain marcus, try dabbing it on, apply and then 'tap' it up and down repeatedly with the brush to exactly where you want it

 

[Car 54]

What works good on bridges in helping to keep them moist during building, is to leave a little facial tissue buccal and lingual under your pontics.
Not only does using tissue help when pulling the bridge off after building, but it provides a wick for you to dip your brush in water
and let it absorb into the tissue up into the pontics and surrounding contact teeth to keep them moist.

If you use tissue or TP for the pontics or blotting, make sure it's a lotion free brand, which is usually the cheaper store brand, as lotions in Kleenex etc
will hamper efficient blotting, as well as I'm not sure what, or if the lotion could get into the build up.

I used to mist as you mentioned, but I got tired of picking up the bottle, so I just wet my brush and re-hydrate through the lingual.
So I always start by building some body porc on the linguals of all my build ups, this way I can add water from there from the brush, or blot from
there without disturbing the buccal/labial porc. build up.

 

[Affinity]

once you get it perfect and ready to fire, drop it on the ground. True sign of a real ceramist.

 

[Car 54]

And it usually bounces a couple of times down your leg off the chair, and rolls to the wall.

 

[Car 54]

once you get it perfect and ready to fire, drop it on the ground. True sign of a real ceramist.

And wasn't it Tanaka years ago, whose shtick was that he able to build and condense so densely he could drop it without hurting it?

 

[Affinity]

the guy I learned from used that line too.. "its not condensed unless you can throw it across the room and not break it'

 

[Car 54]

the guy I learned from used that line too.. "its not condensed unless you can throw it across the room and not break it'

lol...and I was going to use that line in my previous post, as that came to my mind too, about being able to throw it across the room without breaking it.
I mean, why not be content with it not breaking if we drop it on the floor, but no, we have to be able to throw it across the room, to test it.

Is that like fishing, even though there may be boats right off the landing fishing (catching fish?) we have to go clear to the other side of the lake. And of course, the boats in front of the landing are the boats who came from the other side of the lake. Where's CRob when you need him?

 

[millennium]

Try adding a drop or two of glaze liquid to your porcelain/build up liquid mix for greater control.

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

this may be a silly question.....why are you trying to do everything in one bake?
i mean sure it has its merits for high production, but if youre really looking to make gorgeous stacked ceramics, i dont know many/any of the guru's that try to do it in one bake

dont get me wrong, i use gc here and often things come out fantastic in one bake, but i literally always plan for 2 bakes. if i hit it in one, then great....most often im running 2-3 bakes and loving the results. maybe some of the better ceramists than myself will jump in here.... i feel if youre trying to hone in your stacking skills and making a high quality crown from layered ceramics going for a single bake to start might not be the best methodology.