New Yenadent D15 milling machine

[zdental]

Pink fits her also nice

 

[skoo9382]

so are you milling CoCr in the hard state? and if you are, are you milling it using the wet or dry cycle? last question i promise.....how difficult is it to change from wet-to-dry or from dry-to wet? thank you in advance!

 

[adamb4321]

I had a quick discussion with Yena about milling CrCo, they recommended dry milling with air cooling, apparently the burs last twice as long with air cooling versus liquid cooling. You do need quite a lot of air though, 200l/pm minimum. I saw in your other post that you don't want to mill the green state CrCo, any particular reason?

https://vimeo.com/album/2987927/video/98213415

 

[Drizzt]

Hey everyone !! Sorry I was in the IDS so too busy !!

adam4321 , I don't have a problem with the soft CoCr , but since I have the equipment to mill hard CoCr , it is so faster and doesn't make any sense for my lab's needs to buy a 10k euros furnace to do that .

Skoo9382 , it is not impossible , but it is by far beer to have machines that are dedicated to wet or zirconia milling

 

[thewhitelab]

Hi Dimitris, do you know if they sell these units to the UK? shame i didn't get chance to pick your brains while in cologne!
Adam

 

[Drizzt]

Hi Dimitris, do you know if they sell these units to the UK? shame i didn't get chance to pick your brains while in cologne!
Adam

Hey Adam ,

I don't know but I can find out for you tomorrow . It was a shame mate but we will catch up soon , I am sure !

 

[thewhitelab]

Hey Adam ,

I don't know but I can find out for you tomorrow . It was a shame mate but we will catch up soon , I am sure !

Dimitris, i gather you are really pleased with it?

 

[Drizzt]

Dimitris, i gather you are really pleased with it?

Yes I am pleased Adam . Very pleased . I will have some minor upgrades done tomorrow and Friday , I will post pics

 

[adamb4321]

Hi Dimitris, do you know if they sell these units to the UK? shame i didn't get chance to pick your brains while in cologne!
Adam

I'm in the Uk and just in the process of ordering one now, so yes shipping to the uk is no problem.

Oh, and the Euro rate is good at the moment, so it's an ideal time to purchase.

 

[adamb4321]

Hey everyone !! Sorry I was in the IDS so too busy !!

adam4321 , I don't have a problem with the soft CoCr , but since I have the equipment to mill hard CoCr , it is so faster and doesn't make any sense for my lab's needs to buy a 10k euros furnace to do that .

I can see pro's and cons for both materials. I'm thinking that the Soft CrCo will mill quicker and use fewer burs over the course of a year and whilst the Hard CrCo will take longer to mill it wont need a further firing to sinter. There are a couple of sintering furnaces that are able to sinter Zr and the Soft CrCo (not at the same time!) but I so far I haven't managed to find anyone that actually uses one to get some user feedback.

 

[Drizzt]

I can see pro's and cons for both materials. I'm thinking that the Soft CrCo will mill quicker and use fewer burs over the course of a year and whilst the Hard CrCo will take longer to mill it wont need a further firing to sinter. There are a couple of sintering furnaces that are able to sinter Zr and the Soft CrCo (not at the same time!) but I so far I haven't managed to find anyone that actually uses one to get some user feedback.

It all comes to what is your working model . Milled CoCr , is IMO better than anything . Other than that , it is also faster . For a 3 unit bridge , I need one hour . Very fast . For soft CoCr , I need 30 minutes to mill it , but it has to be sintered , with all the problems this can cause (wrapping , undetected micro cracks invisible before sintering ),and it needs a 5-6 hour cycle to do that . And I also trust milled CoCr more for screw retained cases . And I don't need a 10.000 euros special argon furnace to sinter it . As for the ZZ furnace that can sinter both soft metal and zirconia , I would still have in my mind contamination and couldn't sleep at night .

On the ohter hand , tool cost for soft CoCr is very low , it can be milled by any mill , and Whitepeaks Sintec for example has clearance for anything , any size , including Screw retained and bars .

IMO , it all comes to what every lab wants to do , and what needs it has . Both are good , but I think milled CoCr is a lot better .

 

[Sarosh]

HI. I also got my Yenadent D15 last week and I am so excited to start my new journey. Well, guys please guide me for the good blanks and drills. From where I can get all?

 

[adamb4321]

Dimitris, do you see much advantage in the 2.5kw water cooled spindle in your D40 over the 1.3kw air cooled one in the D15?

 

[Drizzt]

Dimitris, do you see much advantage in the 2.5kw water cooled spindle in your D40 over the 1.3kw air cooled one in the D15?

2.5 is more heavy duty . If you intend to mill lots and lots of metal for hours then yes you need it . 1.3 is enough for a more all around use . I have the 1.3 .

 

[adamb4321]

I'm just wondering if I should have ordered the bigger spindle, Ali at Yena said the 1.3kw is fine but it's always good to get the opinion of a tech using one everyday. I was thinking the water cooled may be more accurate?

 

[brayks]

Actually a machine with a 1.3Kw spindle and 100w servos is really an underpowered configuration for machining a tough material such as CoCr, its not all that difficult to stall the spindle or trip the drives.

It can be done however you are really taxing the spindle and will be forced to slow everything down and make scarifies such as: longer cycle times, lowered tool and spindle life as well as less than optimum surface finish.

I'm not sure of the tool shank diameter for this machine, however form images it appears to be only 4mm and if so, is another limiting factor.

Looking at the image posted I would say the machining result is OK. I would like to know how long it took and what the tool-life is for non-precious metal CoCr alloy. I would also love to listen to it cut- you can tell much by listing.

I say Ok based on the "chatter" that appears on the resulting rough surface finish that also exhibits signs of gouging. I also noticed what appears to be use of a "parallel plane" or a "kellering" type of finish machining strategy. They types of inefficient (typically the most inefficient available) finish "anomalies" and machining strategy choices are typically representative of limited CAM functionality and/or machine construction and/or component selection. (i.e. low power spindle/drives, fixturing, etc.) that force the use of less than optimum machining strategies that require less from the machine.

It may also be a choice made by the customer to have this rougher finish for aid in cementation, however there are more efficient ways to accomplish this as well.

I only mention the above as a kind of "be aware" as a more substantial machine would be recommended to meet any significant production requirements.

Obviously Yenadent has "more substantial" offerings available but I can give you and idea of what I am referring to by comparing the results posted with that which we are able to achieve with our Versamill.

Images are the direct results from the machining process- no hand-work.




Additionally, in my opinion the milling of "soft" metals are still not a complete replacement for full metal . Perfecting this material/process has been going on for many years and though it has proven to be effective for smaller restoration, larger frameworks are still a problem due to the unavoidable conditions associated with the process (i.e. detachment of bridge units and deformation of the bridge framework and others).

Just another fellow's opinion...

 

[Drizzt]

Actually a machine with a 1.3Kw spindle and 100w servos is really an underpowered configuration for machining a tough material such as CoCr, its not all that difficult to stall the spindle or trip the drives.

It can be done however you are really taxing the spindle and will be forced to slow everything down and make scarifies such as: longer cycle times, lowered tool and spindle life as well as less than optimum surface finish.

I'm not sure of the tool shank diameter for this machine, however form images it appears to be only 4mm and if so, is another limiting factor.

Looking at the image posted I would say the machining result is OK. I would like to know how long it took and what the tool-life is for non-precious metal CoCr alloy. I would also love to listen to it cut- you can tell much by listing.

I say Ok based on the "chatter" that appears on the resulting rough surface finish that also exhibits signs of gouging. I also noticed what appears to be use of a "parallel plane" or a "kellering" type of finish machining strategy. They types of inefficient (typically the most inefficient available) finish "anomalies" and machining strategy choices are typically representative of limited CAM functionality and/or machine construction and/or component selection. (i.e. low power spindle/drives, fixturing, etc.) that force the use of less than optimum machining strategies that require less from the machine.

It may also be a choice made by the customer to have this rougher finish for aid in cementation, however there are more efficient ways to accomplish this as well.

I only mention the above as a kind of "be aware" as a more substantial machine would be recommended to meet any significant production requirements.

Obviously Yenadent has "more substantial" offerings available but I can give you and idea of what I am referring to by comparing the results posted with that which we are able to achieve with our Versamill.

Images are the direct results from the machining process- no hand-work.




Additionally, in my opinion the milling of "soft" metals are still not a complete replacement for full metal . Perfecting this material/process has been going on for many years and though it has proven to be effective for smaller restoration, larger frameworks are still a problem due to the unavoidable conditions associated with the process (i.e. detachment of bridge units and deformation of the bridge framework and others).

Just another fellow's opinion...

Hey Brayks ,

Yes you are correct , 1.3 spindle is not enough probably . The D15 is my second milling machine . I use it to mill only zirconia , wax and PMMA . I already have a bigger mill , a Yenadent D40 , custom made . I mill all my metal there . D15 is a desktop mill , tha costs roughly over 30 k euros . I don't expect it to give the same results as the 100 k metal milling oriented mill you are selling , it would be absurd . This is not a mill built specifically for metal milling . But it will do the job and do it well .

If the milling strategy is tweaked , it will provide the same result , although the time will increase a lot . I am getting a 20-25 minutes average time on CoCr milling , which is really decent IMO . Personaly , I don't care about the outer surface of the copings , which is a bit rough . Most of the cases I will have to thin it down to 0.3 (I am milling at minimmum thickness of 0.4 as I had some distortion when I milled at 0.3 in the past ) , so no point into having a nice shinny surface on the outside in the real world . It is nice for commercial purpose of course , and you are doing your job ,trying to sell machines . But in the real daily lab life it gives zero advantage .

Shank size is 4mm as you noticed , and we are getting around 40-45 units with one set of tools . Tools used are 3 , 2mm for roughing , 2mm for finishing outside , and 1mm for finishing inside . All spherical .

I agree that soft metal milling is inferior to real CoCr milling , but it is easier . It is not for everyone , but it cn be a nice workflow for certain labs .

 

[brayks]

Hey Drizzt,
Yes, I figured you did your CoCr work on the more "substantial" machine- 20-25 minutes for a multi-unit is a pretty good time.

We get about 30% of our customers wanting the fine finish I have shown on the occlusal (still within the time-range you have specified) however most seem to want it on the prep side (if I told you the cycle time, you wouldn't believe me anyway)

We just provide our customers the opportunity to choose the finish they prefer- there is of course, always a trade-off in cycle time. You might be surprised by the number of people that, at first do not expect this, it prompted me to prepare a short piece about it: CNC Dental Milling: Cycle Time and Surface Finish

Best
Steve

 

[Drizzt]

Hey Drizzt,
Yes, I figured you did your CoCr work on the more "substantial" machine- 20-25 minutes for a multi-unit is a pretty good time.

We get about 30% of our customers wanting the fine finish I have shown on the occlusal (still within the time-range you have specified) however most seem to want it on the prep side (if I told you the cycle time, you wouldn't believe me anyway)

We just provide our customers the opportunity to choose the finish they prefer- there is of course, always a trade-off in cycle time. You might be surprised by the number of people that, at first do not expect this, it prompted me to prepare a short piece about it: CNC Dental Milling: Cycle Time and Surface Finish

Best
Steve

Don't get me wrong . I am just sharring my experience ! Still 70% of your clients don't care for the outer surface so it kinda backs up my story !!

In any case , my point is that comparing the industrial grade mill you're selling , which would have been a great choicefor if I was in the US , is something different compared to my Yena D15 . Not apples to apples .

The fact that you take care of your clients and give them the ability to choose what kind of surface they want , is a big advantage for them !! Support is the number one factor of succes for CAD CAM and you guys seem to have this right !!!

All the best ,

Dimitris

 

[Matiz vasile]

Hello. I want yo buy a yenadent d15. How does the mill perform? Any problems?
I am thinking between yena d15 or imes icore 250i. Any opinions?
Thanks