Non prep veneers

[GarryB]

Just had a client ask for non prep veneers.

We used to make feldspathic veneers using refractory models....man they took hours!!

The veneers we make now are pressed e.max or hybrid composite.

Just wondering what you guys are using for your non prep veneers? Can I make e.max thin enough and then stain and glaze?

I really don't want to start with the refractory models again.

 

[BobCDT]

We don't do many no prep veneers but can thin e.amx down to .2-.3 mm.

 

[TheLabGuy]

Depends...shade/stump is the most important. If it's less than 0.5mm and a translucent shade, then I'd have to go feldspathic. Refractory or foil...they aren't that hard. If it's not that much of a translucent shade then sure, you can thin e.max down real thin (especially on non functioning areas) and micro layer from there. Also, we still do empress...I actually love those for this type of case as long as the shade/stump shade allows for it.

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

emax for sure.

 

[GarryB]

Depends...shade/stump is the most important. If it's less than 0.5mm and a translucent shade, then I'd have to go feldspathic. Refractory or foil...they aren't that hard. If it's not that much of a translucent shade then sure, you can thin e.max down real thin (especially on non functioning areas) and micro layer from there. Also, we still do empress...I actually love those for this type of case as long as the shade/stump shade allows for it.

That's kind of what I was thinking but just didn't want to start doing refractory again. But I guess it's good to keep the skills even though they are used less and less these days.

I may even dig out the foil and spend a Sunday doing something new.

guys

 

[Car 54]

Foil on a no prep veneer...that sounds frustrating. You really won't have any positive seat for the foil, as it's going to be floating on top of the tooth, without any interproximal wrap, if that is the case with this patient. I would go with refractory or a thinned out emax MT ingot. It won't be as gray as a HT may get, unless, you go up 1-2 shades lighter with a a HT ingot, as they were made to mimic the Inc 1/3 of a tooth/shade guide.

If you had any Empress Esthetic ingots laying around, that would probably do a wonderful job more easily.

 

[GarryB]

Foil on a no prep veneer...that sounds frustrating. You really won't have any positive seat for the foil, as it's going to be floating on top of the tooth, without any interproximal wrap, if that is the case with this patient. I would go with refractory or a thinned out emax MT ingot. It won't be as gray as a HT may get, unless, you go up 1-2 shades lighter with a a HT ingot, as they were made to mimic the Inc 1/3 of a tooth/shade guide.

If you had any Empress Esthetic ingots laying around, that would probably do a wonderful job more easily.

I hear what you are saying with it being frustrating. with foil. I would rather go e.max, but just fancied having a play around with something I'm not too familiar with.

I'm interested in what you are saying about the HT ingot greying out.....I rarely thin e.max down so much. Would you go maybe a couple of shades lighter with the ingot and then stain down? I think that is what you are saying? (unfortunately I don't have any empress Esthetic ingots).

 

[Car 54]

Yes, as far as what you thought I meant with the HTs. But, disclaimer here, in that what TheLabGuy said is important, in that if you're making up for discoloration or the teeth are dark and the pt wants to go lighter, HTs will be to translucent and will let it all through. Also, if your correcting more major missing or chipped Inc edges, the thinned out (3/10-5/10ths) will just show that line through. You would have to internal micro layer stains, OD or mamalon material to hide and soften those transition areas of missing edges to your lengthened porc. (like you do with refractory). You could also do that with a MT, which may help hide those transition areas better?

I have yet to do a no prep veneer case, so I'm just kinda spit balling here. So I guess if you wanted to try something new this weekend, press a HT and or a MT single unit for that case, and see what you come up with, and go from there?

edit: so to answer your question a little better, if you were able to use a HT, and at that thinness, I would probably go 2 shades lighter with your experiment press of a single. I would really hate to have to surface stain a no prep veneer as it being that on the surface and trying to chameleon into a tooth (if your not trying to block out a color, or lightening a shade) may not look very good, and could look a little muddy?

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

I hear what you are saying with it being frustrating. with foil. I would rather go e.max, but just fancied having a play around with something I'm not too familiar with.

I'm interested in what you are saying about the HT ingot greying out.....I rarely thin e.max down so much. Would you go maybe a couple of shades lighter with the ingot and then stain down? I think that is what you are saying? (unfortunately I don't have any empress Esthetic ingots).

i do have loads of empress esthetic ingots around here somewhere. if youre interested in going that route, let me know!

 

[Tayebdental]

I have this case, some reduction, contacts between teeth are super tight to go with a refractory model, platinum foil???. I am going with scan mill and press in emax MT BL3 It took me some time to do the separation between dies.

 

[TheLabGuy]

That's kind of what I was thinking but just didn't want to start doing refractory again. But I guess it's good to keep the skills even though they are used less and less these days.

I may even dig out the foil and spend a Sunday doing something new.

guys

I'm not sure if you have a 'swedger'...Captek used them back in the day, but if you do it's great for doing foil. Put a little foil on the die and swedge it. It forms the foil right to the die perfectly. Hope that helps your Sunday

 

[TheLabGuy]

I have this case, some reduction, contacts between teeth are super tight to go with a refractory model, platinum foil???. I am going with scan mill and press in emax MT BL3 It took me some time to do the separation between dies. View attachment 21636

Always depends on the stump shade with these thin veneers because the stump shade is going to bleed through and most of the color you get is from the prep/stump shade. MT ingot is pretty opaque, I'd only use that ingot if I needed to do some slight blocking out of the stump shade. Just my opinion

 

[Car 54]

And you always have some good opinions, LabGuy

edit: always...some...lol, is that a little contradictory?

 

[GarryB]

Yes, as far as what you thought I meant with the HTs. But, disclaimer here, in that what TheLabGuy said is important, in that if you're making up for discoloration or the teeth are dark and the pt wants to go lighter, HTs will be to translucent and will let it all through. Also, if your correcting more major missing or chipped Inc edges, the thinned out (3/10-5/10ths) will just show that line through. You would have to internal micro layer stains, OD or mamalon material to hide and soften those transition areas of missing edges to your lengthened porc. (like you do with refractory). You could also do that with a MT, which may help hide those transition areas better?

I have yet to do a no prep veneer case, so I'm just kinda spit balling here. So I guess if you wanted to try something new this weekend, press a HT and or a MT single unit for that case, and see what you come up with, and go from there?

edit: so to answer your question a little better, if you were able to use a HT, and at that thinness, I would probably go 2 shades lighter with your experiment press of a single. I would really hate to have to surface stain a no prep veneer as it being that on the surface and trying to chameleon into a tooth (if your not trying to block out a color, or lightening a shade) may not look very good, and could look a little muddy?

Ok that's good advice, one point to clarify. If I go 2 shades lighter with the ingot, will the stump shade correct the overall shade without me staining? I know all this is specific to each case and cases vary but ball park?
Also, all this is dependant on the stump not being horribly discoloured.

 

[GarryB]

I'm not sure if you have a 'swedger'...Captek used them back in the day, but if you do it's great for doing foil. Put a little foil on the die and swedge it. It forms the foil right to the die perfectly. Hope that helps your Sunday

Hey LabGuy, I do have a Swedger in my draw. Haven't used it in years. When I started, one of my first jobs in ceramics was PJC's. Loved doing them.

 

[GarryB]

i do have loads of empress esthetic ingots around here somewhere. if youre interested in going that route, let me know!

Thank you for the offer and I will bear it in mind if needed.

 

[Car 54]

Ok that's good advice, one point to clarify. If I go 2 shades lighter with the ingot, will the stump shade correct the overall shade without me staining? I know all this is specific to each case and cases vary but ball park?
Also, all this is dependant on the stump not being horribly discoloured.

That can be a hard call, it depends on how thick the HTs are, and the color underneath. If the "preps" are a A2, and you need to go to a A1 and the HT was .3- .5mm you may accomplish what you need in maybe going 2 steps lighter. It is really helpful if you have stumph material or Smart Spacer (Taub) or TruePrep (Harvest Dental) on a die to see how it will mask or what it will do to your shade. Again, it would be a good idea to press one and see for your case, as in Tayeb's example, I would use a MT ingot like he is (assuming a nice prep color).

It's a matter of trial and error and taking and keeping notes of your observations.

 

[Car 54]

If you were able to get your hands on Oliver Brix book, "Fascinating All-Ceramics", he has some nice photos (page 74-75) giving us ideas of what pressed ingots of differing thicknesses look like on differing color of preps. It's a excellent all around emax resource.

 

[ps2thtec]

Maybe the Opal ingots? This opal 1, with and without flash. These were supposed to be enamel replacement. The 1 has a blue/opal look. I think 2 is higher value? Samples I pressed;never had a lot of use for them though.

 

[TheLabGuy]

I won't do a no-prep case without stump shades...might as well be plssing in the wind if you don't. I still use the stump composite kit from ivoclar. However, with no-prep veneers, the prep is still in the enamel, therefore you're trying to mimic enamel (most HT or the opal ingots work good for this) if pressing.