need help with titanium pfm crowns

[harmonylab]

We tried to get into making titanium pfm crowns, but found that there is a problem with the margins being too dark. It basically took 3 layers of opaque, and it still didn't look perfect. Is there some way to make the margins look good without resorting to 3 layers of opaque?

 

[zero_zero]

Anodize them copings to a yellow color...

 

[Jo Chen]

We tried to get into making titanium pfm crowns, but found that there is a problem with the margins being too dark. It basically took 3 layers of opaque, and it still didn't look perfect. Is there some way to make the margins look good without resorting to 3 layers of opaque?

During my apprenticeship in Germany we used Deckgold NF distributed through Degussa/Ney before opaqueing. It is a paste painted on to the frame and then fired. Comes out looking like Captek. e for beautiful porcelain even with very dark oxidizing metals.

 

[KTR]

Jo, what was your experience with bond and color with titanium?

 

[Jo Chen]

Well, titanium is a bit#@ to bake porcelain to and my experience is limited to the Vita titanium porcelain. Bond is certainly an issue and having to bake on the bonder adds a whole new can of worms in regards to the thickness. Color was decent with the Deckgold and eliminated the bonder.
If titanium were easier to handle we would see more titanium/ceramic restorations. Europe is moving towards chrome cobalt as an alternative for abutments and bar type restorations because it handles so much better with porcelain.

 

[RJS8669]

We've been using a Duceram product purchased from B&D called TriCeram. 4 years - probably around 500 units - and not a single bond failure. The esthetics are pretty good - have not had an issue with dark margins. I would use it all the time, except its a tough sell. 20 years ago - when folks were casting Ti - there were a host of issues with the bond - and some docs remember that and are loathe to give Ti another chance. I believe, from observation, that using milled Ti has eliminated the bond failure issue.

 

[Bumfrey]

i have done a few 6-7 on titanium in the last 4-5 months. I used the noritake porcelain and got a fairly good result. Followed instructions and is worked out fine. Titanium from zfx.

 

[Ken Knapp]

We tried to get into making titanium pfm crowns, but found that there is a problem with the margins being too dark. It basically took 3 layers of opaque, and it still didn't look perfect. Is there some way to make the margins look good without resorting to 3 layers of opaque?

This is based on extensive Ti Porcelain evaluation and Ti alloy evaluation over the last twelve years:

Ti bonder is necessary and GC Initial bonder has the best tested bond strength of ~50 MPA which is comparable to standard base metal and semi-precious alloys.

GC-Initial Ti porcelain is the easiest to work with and the most esthetic made by Klema. Spray opaque in one shot gives the best and thinnest coverage, including the margin.

Titanium alloy 6-7 with niobium has the greatest bond strength and proof stress, although this alloy is not that common for milling. Titanium 6-4, which is the same alloy typically used for abutments, is the second best for bond strength and proof stress.

Avoid Ti-Grade 2 which is still being used which has the lowest bond strength and proof stress. The porcelain will crack when internal crown adjustment is made with Ti-Grade 2 alloy which leads to latent porcelain adhesion failure. The high strength alloys Ti6-7 and Ti6-4 are strong enough so that the porcelain will not crack with internal adjustment.

Ken

 

[greener1031]

We tried to get into making titanium pfm crowns, but found that there is a problem with the margins being too dark. It basically took 3 layers of opaque, and it still didn't look perfect. Is there some way to make the margins look good without resorting to 3 layers of opaque?

enamelite has a reaaly good and thin ti bonder. It is essentially the GC bonder in a spray that is killer thin helps hide margins etc.

 

[TracyLaura6115]

Other than Vita, GC and Noritake does anyone know of any other Ti porcelain? We don't get the esthetic results we are looking for with the GC or Vita. We'd like to use the Noritake but it takes 6-8 weeks to get in and we do so few that's just not a realistic option. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[charles007]

Haven't tried tit yet and don't think I will anytime soon..
Years ago I used white opaque modifier as the first coat to hide dark alloys. White opaque hides the metal at the margins very well !
Better idea is spraying on all your opaques..
If you've never sprayed, it goes on very dense, very thin and very fast. Its really the best way to opaque any alloy.......

 

[Autumn]

This is based on extensive Ti Porcelain evaluation and Ti alloy evaluation over the last twelve years:

Ti bonder is necessary and GC Initial bonder has the best tested bond strength of ~50 MPA which is comparable to standard base metal and semi-precious alloys.

GC-Initial Ti porcelain is the easiest to work with and the most esthetic made by Klema. Spray opaque in one shot gives the best and thinnest coverage, including the margin.

Titanium alloy 6-7 with niobium has the greatest bond strength and proof stress, although this alloy is not that common for milling. Titanium 6-4, which is the same alloy typically used for abutments, is the second best for bond strength and proof stress.

Avoid Ti-Grade 2 which is still being used which has the lowest bond strength and proof stress. The porcelain will crack when internal crown adjustment is made with Ti-Grade 2 alloy which leads to latent porcelain adhesion failure. The high strength alloys Ti6-7 and Ti6-4 are strong enough so that the porcelain will not crack with internal adjustment.

Ken

We use the GC Ti porcelain system with good results and have not had any bonding failures but I am interested in the Spray opaque that you mentioned (Quote: "most esthetic made by Klema. Spray opaque in one shot gives the best and thinnest coverage, including the margin.") Where do you get it and does it replace the bonder we currently use from GC?

 

[TracyLaura6115]

I would also like the info on the spray opaque in one shot.
We don't really have an issue with bonding our issue is purely esthetic. My porcelain tech uses Creation porcelain on his regular crowns and has difficulty getting the same results with the GC titanium porcelain so we are looking for any alternatives or suggestions on how to get better results. Not overly fond of VITA and Noritake ordering time is too long. (6-8 weeks)

 

[Autumn]

We use the GC Ti porcelain system with good results and have not had any bonding failures but I am interested in the Spray opaque that you mentioned (Quote: "most esthetic made by Klema. Spray opaque in one shot gives the best and thinnest coverage, including the margin.") Where do you get it and does it replace the bonder we currently use from GC?

For clarification...Do you use a spray opaque or use only the GC Ti bonder? We are happy with our GC Ti bonder and porcelain and have not had any failures; however, we are interested in the consistency a spray may provide. Your thoughts?

 

[Mike2]

Had also tried this years ago at a big lab....My opinion, stay away, why use it anyhow, because it is high compatible or cheap or insurance recovery. The oxide will grow with every firing as the inside is exposed? My 2cents

 

[JKraver]

Why use Ti over CoCr for pfms? More expensive and problematic.

 

[JMN]

I haven't worked with it myself, but a friend I worked with did when he was in Sweeden many years ago, I'm sure things have progressed since then but this may still help someone.
He was putting a Porc Buccal Shoulder on all of them for the reasons you are fighting. He also found that grinding only in 1 direction/the same direction around the coping gave better bonding than grinding any direction you want to all over the coping.

 

[BobCDT]

We tried a few years ago. FORGET ABOUT IT. Titanium oxides are really bad under high temps. Bond is problem as well as metal creep.

 

[PinAn]

Hi guys,I'm looking porcelain for CP Ti and Ti6-4
For now I know Vita and GC and creation and noritake have this ceramic powder
And with this post, GC looks better,
But wasn't GC and creation is same factory?
So normally creation also like GC?

 

[JKraver]

Same factory doesn't mean same components. Most Zir is made in the same places but not all Zir is the same.