Wieland Zenotech Select Hybrid Problems

[aclavicka]

Hi All,
My lab purchased a Wieland Zenotech Select Hybrid mill with the changer a little over a month ago and we have had issues such as burrs breaking, slow mill time, and not being able to leave the mill unattended. We have only been using it for wet milling. We started with a reasonable mill time and then the mill strategy was changed and it is very slow. Does anyone here have any experience with this machine?
Thanks

 

[NicelyMKV]

Why did they change the strategy?

 

[cadfan]

maybe the reason for special sale 29 k euro there are a lot of versions out problems with vibrations.

 

[NicelyMKV]

I've heard how difficult it has been for the large machines to mill emax successfully. I wondered how these smaller machines would do?

 

[aclavicka]

Why did they change the strategy?

Broken burrs...

Is anything milling emax successfully in a high production lab?

 

[le-ant]

We've had the select hybrid since December,but only wet mill once a week. We've had no real issues with wet milling yet, except for when we tried to mill an inlay. It turns out they haven't released the strategies for inlays yet! What strategy was breaking burrs?

 

[JohnWilson]

I would bet like most issues with dental mills it has less to do with the mill and more to do with the person operating it.

You all have to remember that our vendors have done an amazing thing, they have made turn key systems that work amazingly well for people with little to no machining experience. I am astounded that people often want to chuck things when they do not work rather than learn why it doesn't. There is no real CAM manual for advanced settings for a reason. They do not want you to mess with things you have no clue what will happen when you change something.

I had zero machining experience 4 years ago, my mini worked from day one because I learned what it was doing by trial an error. "My tuition" was not cheap but I pushed that little mill way past what many said it could do. All of my strategies were tweaked/rewritten based on hours of my own hard work.

When I purchased my select I did the same thing. Luckily the CAM is essentially the same. I saw what the generic strategies were doing and then pushed my CAM to do what I wanted it to. Any time a tool breaks it has more to do with USER error unless the machine is way out of spec.

Currently I am not milling glass, that may change in the future, glass is different it appears and IVOCLAR is constantly improving how we work it. Can a small mill do what we can do with pressing? Heck yeah it can, but again if you have limited experience with you CAM you will have issues.

I just do not think there is perfect turn key solution for machining. When there is that's when you should be scared.

 

[le-ant]

I would bet like most issues with dental mills it has less to do with the mill and more to do with the person operating it.

You all have to remember that our vendors have done an amazing thing, they have made turn key systems that work amazingly well for people with little to no machining experience. I am astounded that people often want to chuck things when they do not work rather than learn why it doesn't. There is no real CAM manual for advanced settings for a reason. They do not want you to mess with things you have no clue what will happen when you change something.

I had zero machining experience 4 years ago, my mini worked from day one because I learned what it was doing by trial an error. "My tuition" was not cheap but I pushed that little mill way past what many said it could do. All of my strategies were tweaked/rewritten based on hours of my own hard work.

When I purchased my select I did the same thing. Luckily the CAM is essentially the same. I saw what the generic strategies were doing and then pushed my CAM to do what I wanted it to. Any time a tool breaks it has more to do with USER error unless the machine is way out of spec.

Currently I am not milling glass, that may change in the future, glass is different it appears and IVOCLAR is constantly improving how we work it. Can a small mill do what we can do with pressing? Heck yeah it can, but again if you have limited experience with you CAM you will have issues.

I just do not think there is perfect turn key solution for machining. When there is that's when you should be scared.

I agree. Now we're getting to know our select things are running much smoother. You have be very careful when altering the strategies supplied by Wieland, after all I'm sure they've spent many many hours testing them. Did you write your own strategy for the full arch zirc milling with tissue support?

 

[aclavicka]

Wieland are the only people altering the strategies for wet milling. The CAM software for wet milling is locked unless you are a wieland service tech.

My question is for labs wet milling or milling 'glass'? If so, how many units a day? And at what mill time per emax block?

We have a mini our lab and have no issues...

 

[Gru]

Hey aclavicka! Nice to see you here! Miss your beautiful lab and your toys! Sorry to hear you're having struggles w/ this. I'll have to watch how this works out. I've had my eye on the select for a bit.

 

[Patrick Coon]

Hi aclavicka, I know this may be a redundant question, but have you called and talked to your Wieland service people? I'm not sure where you are located but, they should be the best people to talk with and try to figure out what is happening.

I might also ask if you have calibrated the machine? And if so, did you ensure it was completely dry when doing so. The calibration piece will actually absorb moisture and expand slightly which could throw off your measurements and cause bur breakage issues and poor fits.

 

[aclavicka]

Hi aclavicka, I know this may be a redundant question, but have you called and talked to your Wieland service people? I'm not sure where you are located but, they should be the best people to talk with and try to figure out what is happening.

I might also ask if you have calibrated the machine? And if so, did you ensure it was completely dry when doing so. The calibration piece will actually absorb moisture and expand slightly which could throw off your measurements and cause bur breakage issues and poor fits.

Yes to all of your questions. We just want to know how the wet mill has been fairing in the real world. We only want to use it for milling emax and empress

 

[brian1981]

We've had the Select Hybrid since the beginning of November. I went through a period where burs were breaking as well. It's very very important to make certain that you block out any undercuts or discrepancies on the prep before scanning and designing. This machine is very picky as far as that goes. Also when preparing to mill in the Zenotec CAM software make sure to choose the best possible insertion direction. I know that sounds obvious. But it's very critical you don't want to have hardly any shadows when looking into the inside of the crown. I also run the simulation on most every crown before sending to the mill. If you see any areas other than tiny spots that appear in red or blue. You are more times than not going to break a bur. Another thing is to clean the filter on the Hydro often. I know in the Weiland training they didn't share how important that is to do. When cleaning the filter I also change the water and synergy solution. I'm doing this once a week. We mill 20-25 crowns a day. From time to time I will still have a bur break but not very often as when I first started to use the mill. And usually this is my fault for testing the limit of a red area I saw in the simulation. If you have any other questions feel free to email or call anytime. [email protected] 651-407-0491

 

[Patrick Coon]

We've had the Select Hybrid since the beginning of November. I went through a period where burs were breaking as well. It's very very important to make certain that you block out any undercuts or discrepancies on the prep before scanning and designing. This machine is very picky as far as that goes. Also when preparing to mill in the Zenotec CAM software make sure to choose the best possible insertion direction. I know that sounds obvious. But it's very critical you don't want to have hardly any shadows when looking into the inside of the crown. I also run the simulation on most every crown before sending to the mill. If you see any areas other than tiny spots that appear in red or blue. You are more times than not going to break a bur. Another thing is to clean the filter on the Hydro often. I know in the Weiland training they didn't share how important that is to do. When cleaning the filter I also change the water and synergy solution. I'm doing this once a week. We mill 20-25 crowns a day. From time to time I will still have a bur break but not very often as when I first started to use the mill. And usually this is my fault for testing the limit of a red area I saw in the simulation. If you have any other questions feel free to email or call anytime. [email protected] 651-407-0491

I definitely agree with Brian and failed to mention that in the previous post. When Mitch does the training I know he emphasizes how important it is when grinding glass ceramics to set the best possible insertion direction yourself and not let the CAM software do it automatically. This way when it is grinding the internal aspects of the crown it is not putting any excessive lateral forces on the grinders.

 

[JohnWilson]

This is the problem with most turn key solutions, everyone wants to "set it and forget it" Ron Popeil style.

The CAM is only a tool, how you implement it is based on your experience and understanding of it. I can guarantee that the MAJORITY of people do not run simulations EVERY-TIME, We do. The standard deviation graphics are very telling and will allow you to solve many problems before you ever send the file to the mill.

 

[NicelyMKV]

Out of curiosity, how do you have your design system set up? I have mine set to 4 axis manufacturing. I'm not having any issues with internal undercuts etc.? Just wondering

 

[JohnWilson]

I have mine set up 3+2 in 3shape under the zenocam manufacturing

 

[Doug Stuart]

Hi There,
I have installed 5 hybrid units here in Australia since the beginning of December 2014, and generally they have all been working great, and the lab owners are loving them.
Yes, we have had some tool breakages also, but could be due to these reasons;

• Tool usage maybe high and thus the tool not have the same grinding properties and so will break as there is more lateral pressure on the tool. You will not get the same life out of a Diamond tool that you do out of the Zirk tools.
• The only indications that we have strategies for are Copings, Full contour Crowns and Bridges. My guys have been grinding inlays and even tried abutments, but have mostly failed or broken a tool.
• Always make sure that the Block is securely fastened and is butted all the up to the ematrix

Make sure you do a CAM software update as there is a new version available: V3.3.047. This seems to have improved milling times.
Also, set the Milling Multiplicator in the settings to 1.50. this gives you a more accurate milling time in the Mill manager

 

[Travis]

@Doug Stuart @aclavicka Welcome..

 

[harmonylab]

we have a dry select. reliability has been shoddy so far. had multiple problems with the disk changer, air nozzle problem, and is currently unusable because of power problems, and has been down for several weeks now.