Milling Ti & COCR

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grantoz

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Fellow DNL's I would like to ask about milling metal bars.What is the likely bur usage rate ? how long do they take to mill? and how successful has it been for you guys to do it in house ?.I personally have found it better to design in house and outsource the milling. I am currently looking for a 2nd mill and am considering buying a mill with metal milling capabilities Im still not 100% convinced its going to be that great.Please no send to me I willl mill it posts ,Im not interested. Im asking for personal experience operators using small to mid sized mills. Thankyou in advance for your help.
 
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grantoz

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Your feedback would be truly helpful or is it nobody is milling metal bars with small to medium mills
 
DentalAxess

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Hi Grant, are you thinking milling direct to fixture or to interface?
Titanium and Cobalt Chrome?
 
LA Ceramics

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Sinterable CrCo w/interfaces dude,...
AG has it,..Zubler and ZZ keep sayin' they got it but ?,..
I'm not sure why Zirc wouldn't work.
Looks like Panthera's doing 'em pretty in pink.
 
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La are you doing much in sintering bars and how long do they take to mill.The last time I checked this option out about 2.5 years ago the fit was ?????and the longer the bar the worse the fit.That was at ZZ HQ you also need a special furnace the way I understand it ,is that correct?
 
BobCDT

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We are doing Zi full arches screw retained cases and this is not too difficult. Titanium bars are a different story. To achieve a perfect passive fit requires more precision than what desk top mills are built for. I am not aware of any mill under $100K that will do this consistently. Nor am I aware of a mill that will do this for the high $100ks.
In addition, the accuracy needed to mill interfaces is something that probably requires several years of machining knowledge. The ability to develope mill Stratergies and understand tools, tool paths tool wear and all the why and how.
For now, I believe it's best to outsource ti bar manufacturing.
Bars take five hours or more and generally require 8 or more different tools. Mills that I've seen that can do it repeatedly, Daytron and Micron they start at about $250K including CAM. The Micron is over $350K. I'm sure there are others but I believe the price point for mills for bars is in that range.
Keep in mind, the errors build up in all parts of the system. Scan flags, scanners, mills, tools and tool wear. For perfect bars all are critical. This is why those that can do it charge $1000 for a part milled from a $130 disc.
 
brayks

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Bob brings up very good points here.

MOST bench-top mills are not of the construction required. Our Versamill however IS a bench-top machine that can be added to his list of capable machines that can repeatedly produce high-quality dental bars with the accuracy, fit and finish they require – for about ONE-HALF the cost mentioned.

Relative to the amount of machining knowledge required. Bob is correct; IF the customer or his supplier does not have the knowledge required to provide the technology or adequately support their customers in this area. (which is what we see is most often the case).

That is why it is important to work with a partner such as Axsys Dental Solutions that has this knowledge. Just as with abutments, it is OUR job to leverage our 30-plus years of CAD/CAM/CNC experience to train our customers and develop machining templates that enable them to quickly and easily produce the wide variety of designs/configurations that exist – and we do this.

Just as our tag-line says: “It’s more than just about the machine”

While many bars can benefit (in terms of cycle time) by using more cutting tools, it is not necessary to utilize 8 or more tools to produce a bar. In fact, as in the case referenced in the video below, we have done so with as little as 5 tools – in SIGNIFICANTLY less than 5 hours.

Inaccuracies built up (what is referred to as “stack-tolerances”) in:
  • Machines (including all-important fixturing)?
Absolutely a consideration; not a problem with the Versamill (I could go on and on regarding this topic).​
  • Scan Flags, Scanners, Data etc.
A very big issue. Assuring quality of INPUT data is essential. The machine only cuts what is provided to it. Just as the old truism states: “garbage in, garbage out”.​
  • Tool configurations & tool wear
Always an issue with any restoration, it is important to use the right tool for the right job and be vigilant on its performance. This of course should be covered in detail with the customer by their supplier during the training process.​

And there are more…

The biggest challenge we see in the manufacturing of dental bars is the actual design of the bar itself.

What we see is technicians designing bars that quite frankly are either not manufacturable, would require extensive bench-work or when machined, would never function for the intent in which they were designed. Further we see designs with extraneous geometry and even incorrect geometry included in key areas of the designs.

These problems are typically the result of: untrained or improperly trained users, CAD limitations and/or poorly defined or inaccurate designs provided.

We provide solutions (and training of course) to enable customers to identify and modify problem areas in designs to assure manufacturability.

I recently prepared a presentation to give at the Greater New York Dental Meeting on this very subject entitled “Manufacturing Considerations in Dental Bar Design”. I thought it might be appropriate, given the content of this thread to provide a link to a video of the presentation itself. The video basically runs though the presentation but spares the viewer listening me provide the “meat” to the potatoes. Warning: some of the timings are off due to PowerPoint “features”.

I should probably “cease and desist” now. Please PM me if you have any questions.

Sorry for the length of this post. I really tried to make it shorter…
Steve


 
2thm8kr

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If any of you guys were thinking about chipping in to get me one of these^^^^ for Christmas, shoot me a pm for the shipping address.
I promise to act surprised when I open the crate.;)
 
brayks

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If any of you guys were thinking about chipping in to get me one of these^^^^ for Christmas, shoot me a pm for the shipping address.
I promise to act surprised when I open the crate.;)

LOL. Do you think Santa's sleigh can handle the load?
 
Beatrice

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Bob brings up very good points here.

MOST bench-top mills are not of the construction required. Our Versamill however IS a bench-top machine that can be added to his list of capable machines that can repeatedly produce high-quality dental bars with the accuracy, fit and finish they require – for about ONE-HALF the cost mentioned.

Relative to the amount of machining knowledge required. Bob is correct; IF the customer or his supplier does not have the knowledge required to provide the technology or adequately support their customers in this area. (which is what we see is most often the case).

That is why it is important to work with a partner such as Axsys Dental Solutions that has this knowledge. Just as with abutments, it is OUR job to leverage our 30-plus years of CAD/CAM/CNC experience to train our customers and develop machining templates that enable them to quickly and easily produce the wide variety of designs/configurations that exist – and we do this.

Just as our tag-line says: “It’s more than just about the machine”

While many bars can benefit (in terms of cycle time) by using more cutting tools, it is not necessary to utilize 8 or more tools to produce a bar. In fact, as in the case referenced in the video below, we have done so with as little as 5 tools – in SIGNIFICANTLY less than 5 hours.

Inaccuracies built up (what is referred to as “stack-tolerances”) in:
  • Machines (including all-important fixturing)?
Absolutely a consideration; not a problem with the Versamill (I could go on and on regarding this topic).​
  • Scan Flags, Scanners, Data etc.
A very big issue. Assuring quality of INPUT data is essential. The machine only cuts what is provided to it. Just as the old truism states: “garbage in, garbage out”.​
  • Tool configurations & tool wear
Always an issue with any restoration, it is important to use the right tool for the right job and be vigilant on its performance. This of course should be covered in detail with the customer by their supplier during the training process.​

And there are more…

The biggest challenge we see in the manufacturing of dental bars is the actual design of the bar itself.

What we see is technicians designing bars that quite frankly are either not manufacturable, would require extensive bench-work or when machined, would never function for the intent in which they were designed. Further we see designs with extraneous geometry and even incorrect geometry included in key areas of the designs.

These problems are typically the result of: untrained or improperly trained users, CAD limitations and/or poorly defined or inaccurate designs provided.

We provide solutions (and training of course) to enable customers to identify and modify problem areas in designs to assure manufacturability.

I recently prepared a presentation to give at the Greater New York Dental Meeting on this very subject entitled “Manufacturing Considerations in Dental Bar Design”. I thought it might be appropriate, given the content of this thread to provide a link to a video of the presentation itself. The video basically runs though the presentation but spares the viewer listening me provide the “meat” to the potatoes. Warning: some of the timings are off due to PowerPoint “features”.

I should probably “cease and desist” now. Please PM me if you have any questions.

Sorry for the length of this post. I really tried to make it shorter…
Steve


I have watch your video and read your post.
You obviously understand milling BUT
I understand the "AVOID" doing this or that, but the medical field cannot be ruled by a machine. If the implant is at this position it is. If the bar need to be this shape, it need to be!
I can understand there always a way to optimize everything but after 50 000 bars I can tell you more than ever we need to be imaginative to offer to the patient what he need to have.
That why a real machine for doing bar is not a table top like your versamill and that why we use MUCH more than 8 different tools to do 1 bar. Indeed, with good cam strategy and experience you will get a good product out of a machine like yours but you will stay limited and my question is : as dental professional where our job is to give to patient the best they can have, why using tool that limit ourselves?
 
KentPWalton

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The biggest challenge we see in the manufacturing of dental bars is the actual design of the bar itself.

What we see is technicians designing bars that quite frankly are either not manufacturable, would require extensive bench-work or when machined, would never function for the intent in which they were designed. Further we see designs with extraneous geometry and even incorrect geometry included in key areas of the designs.

These problems are typically the result of: untrained or improperly trained users, CAD limitations and/or poorly defined or inaccurate designs provided.
Steve,

Can you take some screen shots in the CAM and show me what you're talking about non-manufacturable bars? I'd like to see what happens when the extraneous geometry design of the bars makes the CAM do.:D

Thank you Sir.
 
brayks

brayks

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I have watch your video and read your post.
You obviously understand milling BUT
I understand the "AVOID" doing this or that, but the medical field cannot be ruled by a machine. If the implant is at this position it is. If the bar need to be this shape, it need to be!
I can understand there always a way to optimize everything but after 50 000 bars I can tell you more than ever we need to be imaginative to offer to the patient what he need to have.
That why a real machine for doing bar is not a table top like your versamill and that why we use MUCH more than 8 different tools to do 1 bar. Indeed, with good cam strategy and experience you will get a good product out of a machine like yours but you will stay limited and my question is : as dental professional where our job is to give to patient the best they can have, why using tool that limit ourselves?


Not sure where you're coming from.

Nothing in my post suggests that one should EVER design something that produced a product that would not function as required. In fact that should never be the case. OF COURSE an implant is in a given position and the bar must reflect that position. I frankly thought that was a given.

The ability to produce that which is designed by a computer is however, ruled by manufacturing processes; it's a fact of life. Not all companies have access to or the resources to acquire various technologies; nor do they have the knowledge to apply technologies or have the experience necessary to "process" and manufacture certain complex designs. But make no mistake, the medical field, just as any other "field" IS limited by the manufacturing process.

Just because someone can design it does not mean it can be manufactured by a given company with the quality, price and lead-time required and enable one to make a reasonable profit. There are many modifications that can be made that facilitate the manufacturing process that have absolutely no effect on the intended fit and function of a design. In fact, in reality it is quite the opposite. These "modifications" or considerations typically produce a SUPERIOR product. It's called Modeling for Manufacture and was the point of my post.

Being deeply involved for over 30 years, I not only understand milling but also manufacturing AND machine tools therefore, your comment about a "real machine" and the Versamill?... I won't even justify that ridiculous and ill-informed comment by addressing it.

Also, I can think of about 200,000 reasons why someone might be OK with being as you say "limited". Especially when those "limitations" (real or perceived) are of no consequence to one's near or long term business objectives.
 
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brayks

brayks

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Steve,

Can you take some screen shots in the CAM and show me what you're talking about non-manufacturable bars? I'd like to see what happens when the extraneous geometry design of the bars makes the CAM do.:D

Thank you Sir.

Hi Kent,
Sure, I can follow up after the Holidays.
Best wishes to you and all the DLN members for a great holiday season.
Steve
 
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