Ivoclar revolution in 26 days?

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charles007

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Chris, when will the "Zubler Revolution" ingot start ? and blocks I hope ?
This year ?

btw: Thanks for helping me out Wed. :)
 
Zubler USA

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The Zubler ingots start when the FDA says go! No blocks as far as I know. We do not believe it make sense to mill it. Better to mill wax and press it. Cheaper and better results. This is has been demonstrated repeatedly with e.max.

No Problem. always glad to help.
 
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The Zubler ingots start when the FDA says go! No blocks as far as I know. We do not believe it make sense to mill it. Better to mill wax and press it. Cheaper and better results. This is has been demonstrated repeatedly with e.max.

No Problem. always glad to help.
Lets get some hype going...whats the pitch?
 
rlhhds

rlhhds

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Question? Should your vendor try to intimidate / manipulate / coerce you into buying their equipment as a part of their ceramic system? If not, what are you going to do about it?

No intimidation on my reps part into buying. She was just letting me know what's up. She knows that we don't use their presses.
 
Zubler USA

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No intimidation on my reps part into buying. She was just letting me know what's up. She knows that we don't use their presses.

Fair enough. However, Will they sell you the ingot if you do not buy their oven?
 
Zubler USA

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Lets get some hype going...whats the pitch?

No Hype. As soon as it's released in the U.S. it will be available. If you want more information, contact me directly. No cart before horse if I can help it.
 
rlhhds

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Fair enough. However, Will they sell you the ingot if you do not buy their oven?

You don't have to buy one of their ovens but they won't sell you the ingots if you don't own one of the new ovens.
 
Patrick Coon

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You don't have to buy one of their ovens but they won't sell you the ingots if you don't own one of the new ovens.

They should not stop you from buying the kits or the ingots even though you don't have our press. BUT, we don't have parameters for other furnaces (and can't even see the parameters on ours),so you would have to do your own research and development to see if it would work for your furnace.

I can say that we've already seen some results from other furnaces that "claim" to have parameters for the IPS e.max Press Multi ingots, and they are not good. Not sure where they got there parameters even before the ingots were released. Dontknow
 
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They should not stop you from buying the kits or the ingots even though you don't have our press. BUT, we don't have parameters for other furnaces (and can't even see the parameters on ours),so you would have to do your own research and development to see if it would work for your furnace.

I can say that we've already seen some results from other furnaces that "claim" to have parameters for the IPS e.max Press Multi ingots, and they are not good. Not sure where they got there parameters even before the ingots were released. Dontknow

Our parameters are due to be released soon. I am sure when they are, they will work....very well. Patrick, When are you guys going to finally get rid of the reusable plunger mentality and come over to the disposable side? It makes so much more sense to use disposable plungers that share the same thermal mass as the investment.
 
Patrick Coon

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Hey Chris, I wasn't speaking of your parameters, actually another company's (that will remain nameless). Sorry for the confusion. :)

As for the plunger situation, all our parameters are formulated with the ALOX plunger in the equation. And not my call, but personally, I would want the reuseable plunger that lasts for years when taken care of, instead of buying a disposable plunger for each case. But, that's just me.
 
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Our parameters are due to be released soon. I am sure when they are, they will work....very well. Patrick, When are you guys going to finally get rid of the reusable plunger mentality and come over to the disposable side? It makes so much more sense to use disposable plungers that share the same thermal mass as the investment.
On the Multi you have to use a disposable plunger. In addition to the alox plunger though, but you still have the disposable towards the press ingot.
 
Patrick Coon

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That is correct. You need this due to the increased length of the plunger channel, otherwise you would not get a complete pressing.
 
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Ron.Ferland

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Question? Should your vendor try to intimidate / manipulate / coerce you into buying their equipment as a part of their ceramic system? If not, what are you going to do about it?
Wow, sounds like sour grapes... No one needs to buy this new ingot, get it? Ivoclar develops something that seems relevant and all you want to do is crap on it and stir everyone up here. They have a technique that suggests their furnace be used to maximize the result, but you don't need to buy it or the ingot. It's called choice. I see this actually making sense. Oh, I get it, this hinders your new LD ingot... Zubler, why not invent something original instead of copying everything Ivoclar does? BTW, I saw how the Dekema pressed this ingot and it failed miserably with their so-called program.
 
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I think the opinion of many is that Zubler created a better furnace and pressing program than the original eMax versions . . . .
Let the forum members chime in on that . . .
LCM
 
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Ron.Ferland

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I think the opinion of many is that Zubler created a better furnace and pressing program than the original eMax versions . . . .
Let the forum members chime in on that . . .
LCM
That's a good point LCM. The difference between the furnaces as I understand it is that the program in the Zubler takes the temp to around 1050, then back below 900 for pressing. Interesting concept, but outside the patented process determined by Ivoclar. When I was looking at furnaces, I have to admit I was interested in the quicker press time. My rep said ivoclar could easily write a program to mimic the zubler program, but they don't have the studies or validation to safely do it. Curious what long term studies zubler has to validate this process.... When I asked zublerusa a while back for the validation, he couldn't provide it.
 
rlhhds

rlhhds

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That's a good point LCM. The difference between the furnaces as I understand it is that the program in the Zubler takes the temp to around 1050, then back below 900 for pressing. Interesting concept, but outside the patented process determined by Ivoclar. When I was looking at furnaces, I have to admit I was interested in the quicker press time. My rep said ivoclar could easily write a program to mimic the zubler program, but they don't have the studies or validation to safely do it. Curious what long term studies zubler has to validate this process.... When I asked zublerusa a while back for the validation, he couldn't provide it.

What do you mean by validation? I validate my zubler press everyday by successfully pressing without fail.
 
NicelyMKV

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That's a good point LCM. The difference between the furnaces as I understand it is that the program in the Zubler takes the temp to around 1050, then back below 900 for pressing. Interesting concept, but outside the patented process determined by Ivoclar. When I was looking at furnaces, I have to admit I was interested in the quicker press time. My rep said ivoclar could easily write a program to mimic the zubler program, but they don't have the studies or validation to safely do it. Curious what long term studies zubler has to validate this process.... When I asked zublerusa a while back for the validation, he couldn't provide it.
That's not correct. zubler holds the patent to that press process. That's why Ivoclar is not doing it. It has nothing to do with the Ivoclar needing to validate the outcome.....
 
Patrick Coon

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When speaking of validation, we do a number of procedures (millings, pressings, etc) with the descirbed parameters (materials, temperatures, speeds, etc). We then look at the material from a scientific standpoint and ensure it meets all the described properties (strength, shade, etc).
 
RileyS

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That's a good point LCM. The difference between the furnaces as I understand it is that the program in the Zubler takes the temp to around 1050, then back below 900 for pressing. Interesting concept, but outside the patented process determined by Ivoclar. When I was looking at furnaces, I have to admit I was interested in the quicker press time. My rep said ivoclar could easily write a program to mimic the zubler program, but they don't have the studies or validation to safely do it. Curious what long term studies zubler has to validate this process.... When I asked zublerusa a while back for the validation, he couldn't provide it.
I was sold on quicker press time too, among other things, but was told I would need to allow oven to cool down to 700C with oven closed before beginning next press. That takes a long time.
 
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I was sold on quicker press time too, among other things, but was told I would need to allow oven to cool down to 700C with oven closed before beginning next press. That takes a long time.
clarification...the muffle should always be closed following use to prevent the platform from warping; its heavy and I doubt it would warp, but just to be safe...

I just did a press and timed the cool down to 700; 6 minutes.

To the best of my knowledge you dont need to let it cool down before starting the next press. I dont and have had no problems.
 

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