help! emax to zirconia prob

[rkm rdt]

Problem solved.

 

[Mohammad Khair]

you bring the porcelain down to the margins on almost all of those caces.

 

[Mohammad Khair]

Problem solved.

the same way solution, that is what we were talking about.
reduce the offset near the finish line and apply for the wash layer.

 

[Patrick Coon]

The reason that Zirliner is required is that the e.max Ceram powders fire at 750C and at that temperature you do not develope a good, strong bond to the zirconia. The Zirliner fires at 960C and allows a good bond to the zirconia.

Some other brands of porcelain fire at a temperature greater than 900C and hence do not require a sepereate liner for bonding. But because the Ceram is made to be used with both Lithium Disilicate and Zirconia we can't fire it at the 900C+ teperatures.

As for shading the zirconia substructures this is not as important anymore with the introduction of shaded zirconia, that is why we have the Zirliner clear that only gives you the bond and added fluoressence. If using shaded zirconia only keep the Zirliner Clear in stock.

 

[rkm rdt]

you bring the porcelain down to the margins on almost all of those caces.

No I didn't. The last pic shows the cutback begins above the gingival 1/3rd.

They are all zirconia gingivals my friend.

 

[NicelyMKV]

Patrick beat me to it, but I was going to say that I started using clear Zirliner when I started pre shading my Zr.

 

[rkm rdt]

Me too however I do like to use the pink zirliner for gingival additions.

 

[Mohammad Khair]

No I didn't. The last pic shows the cutback begins above the gingival 1/3rd.

They are all zirconia gingivals my friend.

best wishes

 

[Mohammad Khair]

The reason that Zirliner is required is that the e.max Ceram powders fire at 750C and at that temperature you do not develope a good, strong bond to the zirconia. The Zirliner fires at 960C and allows a good bond to the zirconia.

Some other brands of porcelain fire at a temperature greater than 900C and hence do not require a sepereate liner for bonding. But because the Ceram is made to be used with both Lithium Disilicate and Zirconia we can't fire it at the 900C+ teperatures.

As for shading the zirconia substructures this is not as important anymore with the introduction of shaded zirconia, that is why we have the Zirliner clear that only gives you the bond and added fluoressence. If using shaded zirconia only keep the Zirliner Clear in stock.

its a mechanical bond and if we use a porcelain that have almost the same temperature as of the porcelain used for wash layer, then we will get better bond , cause each firing the wash layer will get more mature slowly and that will enhance bonding under shrinkage and vacuum.
higher temp liner will not interact anymore after the first firing.

i don't really need any liner the bond between my wash layer and the zircon framework is stronger than the bond between liner and the zircon framework, so clear liner will take a place for nothing,
while i can use that space to enrich the color of choice with wash layer.

 

[Drizzt]

its a mechanical bond and if we use a porcelain that have almost the same temperature as of the porcelain used for wash layer, then we will get better bond , cause each firing the wash layer will get more mature slowly and that will enhance bonding under shrinkage and vacuum.
higher temp liner will not interact anymore after the first firing.

i don't really need any liner the bond between my wash layer and the zircon framework is stronger than the bond between liner and the zircon framework, so clear liner will take a place for nothing,
while i can use that space to enrich the color of choice with wash layer.

Mohammad , you clearly have your technique . If it works for you then it is great . Sorry but I can'r accept that it is better than the one the manufacturer of the material is recommending .It doesn't make any sense to me , that if I over bake my ceramic , it will give me better bond no matter what you say . Zirliner clear will be as thick as 0.1 after firing , which is practically nothing . After that , I can enrich the color and do whatever I want with my frame , there are many techniques to do so . I prefer using powders or stains to do that AFTER zirliner , so does Gerald Ubassy and so does August Bruguera when I took courses with them , and so does Oliver Brix as I have read at his book . So I will trust the manufacturer , and some world leaders that have evolved the system .

But as I said , if it works for you , it is great . But you can't claim that ''my method is better and the bond is stronger '' , because you can't support this .

Let's just agree that we disagree !

 

[Mohammad Khair]

Mohammad , you clearly have your technique . If it works for you then it is great . Sorry but I can'r accept that it is better than the one the manufacturer of the material is recommending .It doesn't make any sense to me , that if I over bake my ceramic , it will give me better bond no matter what you say . Zirliner clear will be as thick as 0.1 after firing , which is practically nothing . After that , I can enrich the color and do whatever I want with my frame , there are many techniques to do so . I prefer using powders or stains to do that AFTER zirliner , so does Gerald Ubassy and so does August Bruguera when I took courses with them , and so does Oliver Brix as I have read at his book . So I will trust the manufacturer , and some world leaders that have evolved the system .

But as I said , if it works for you , it is great . But you can't claim that ''my method is better and the bond is stronger '' , because you can't support this .

Let's just agree that we disagree !

at the end our judgement is final,, we are the experts.

 

[Tayebdental]

Hello

 

[Kaypan]

When I was attending technical training at the Ivoclar factory in Liechtenstein, they said that one of the reasons to use the liner(in addition to the other reasons mentioned previosly in this thread) is because ZirLiner material has a much smaller grain size than the other Ivo layering ceramics. Since there is only mechanical bond, the smaller the grain size the stronger bond you will get. It will get into almost any corner of the zirconia structure.

 

[creationsdental]

I agree with rkm rtd. I always do an interim fire on connectors, deep dentin on incisal edge of framework and also above lingual/palatal collars( if you do zr collars) . EMax is a high shrinkage porcelain and tearing can be really time consuming. Also if you have issues with your eMax shrinking after initial bake drop heat rate to 40degress on ur first bake and no more further shrinkage.