Digital Impression

[PGguy]

Hey Guys,

I was recently talking with a dentist who is looking to get into digital. He was looking at the Lava one. I told him I would check what the very reliable "Dental lab network" had to say, so here I am.

Which system are out there?, which are wicked good? what have you used? any future ones that he should wait for? yada yada....


Thanks everyone,

Sean

 

[TheLabGuy]

I've used Cadent Itero......
Worked great, zero remakes but the texture of the model milled out was horrible. Ask any good ceramist, texture can make or break a case in the mouth and without any texture references (because all you see is bur marks) it's a total guess. Cerec connect is coming along, I just hate doing any business with Patterson/Sirona because they bad mouth lab technicians to the Dentists so much. Now 3M's C.O.S. system would be where I would lean too, but I have also heard they have some texture issues as well......so I'm curious what other folks have to say.

For digital impression for the Dentists......it's great if your a noob. What I mean is if your Dentist right out of school, then doing digital impressions would come highly recommended from me. Most Dentists out of school are wayyyyy too conservative when it comes to prepping, build there build-ups straighter than their office walls, and easily mistake playdoh for impression material. The machines won't allow you to develop bad habits from the get go. In addition, the machines tell you to remove more occlusally, or your axial wall needs more of an angle, things like this......Your Dentists' that have been in the trenches for awhile will most likely find it a waste of time UNLESS they have been having issues with impressions or impression material......then they might find it useful as well.

 

[paulg100]

Doing high end anterior work on either milled or SLA models is a no no at the moment.

As pointed out, there is virtually zero surface texture with these technologies.

Also i hear from a lava milling center owner that the SLA models are not consistant. Print 2 models from the same data and there are dimensional differences. As the frame would be milled stright from the digital data this is probably not an issue but worth pointing out. These models are not the ultimate in accuracy that the companies are trying to make out.

Probably oK for run of the mill work but i think the technology has a long way to go yet. Also the models are not cheap.

Still probably way more accurate than the iffy impressions we get from alot of clients.

 

[95 years]

digital

Check out the new CLON 3D

 

[JohnWilson]

Hey Guys,

I was recently talking with a dentist who is looking to get into digital. He was looking at the Lava one. I told him I would check what the very reliable "Dental lab network" had to say, so here I am.

Which system are out there?, which are wicked good? what have you used? any future ones that he should wait for? yada yada....


Thanks everyone,

Sean

We recently got into 3m's COS system as a bigger volume account of mine was interested in going digital. He is a good client with very little issues with remakes. The models we are getting back are very nice and accurate. The downside at this time is just the price and lack of surface texture. Although they are considerably better than milled models. My thoughts are that this system would be terrific for clients that have fit issues, it force a client to improve his prep as he is visually seeing it in magnification that is truly impossible not to see a crappy prep. I have several other new clients that are just starting to get their training with their new systems and I am eagerly awaiting all the new work. I will update this as time progresses.

 

[paulg100]

yeah i think the big plus here is dimensional accuracy compared to a conventional imp. Great for bridge work etc.

 

[rkm rdt]

"My thoughts are that this system would be terrific for clients that have fit issues, it force a client to improve his prep as he is visually seeing it in magnification that is truly impossible not to see a crappy prep."

I'm not convinced that these clients would shell out the money for this.You are assuming they would take the responsibility for a poor fitting restoration.

I don't think a milled model makes any sense.I think a silicone mold of the scan would be more cost effective and versitile.

 

[JohnWilson]

"My thoughts are that this system would be terrific for clients that have fit issues, it force a client to improve his prep as he is visually seeing it in magnification that is truly impossible not to see a crappy prep."

I'm not convinced that these clients would shell out the money for this.You are assuming they would take the responsibility for a poor fitting restoration.

I don't think a milled model makes any sense.I think a silicone mold of the scan would be more cost effective and versitile.

Hi Rick,

What I find is guys that are always re-impressing or are sending imps that are not clear are generally guys that have a different approach as it relates to tissue management. IE prepping before they get the perio in check hence these guys normally can not control the fluids that can cause havoc in acquiring a good impression. When a patient is bleeding its near impossible to not have a distorted impression. Sure there are some impression materials that strive to overcome this phenomenon but as we all know its not 100% effective. Having the ability to start and stop a scan to control moisture can be very effective tool.

I have a client that ran at about 9 to 12% remake before I fired him. He has came back to me on 3 separate occasions ( price increase) stating he has the best "Luck" with me. He has recently signed a contract with 3m to acquire this system, and I am eagerly awaiting his first scans to come through.

This guy will be my benchmark for the system for sure.

 

[rkm rdt]

I can see the potential for a larger lab for sure.When a dentist comes back , it sure reaffirms your direction and gives you good insite into your competition.

 

[PGguy]

Thanks for the Input guys

 

[paulg100]

agree with john 100% on that. I think these systems will be a very effective tool for clients who cant take an imp for love nor money!

For clients that get top notch consistent imps, i dont really see a great deal of value in these systems at the current time. The costs of both the equipment and model work, plus the texture issues are to high to justify at the moment for these guys.

Its not difficult to say that given time, EVERY practice will be using this tech sooner or later though (probably sooner).

 

[charles007]

Sean, I would tell your dentist to wait another year, maybe the Chicago meeting in Feb. Prices will be lower in the near future, model prices will drop, and I hope the detail in the models will improve.......
Several companies I know of are working on digital impression equipment now..........

Charles

 

[digitalcadcam1]

Doing high end anterior work on either milled or SLA models is a no no at the moment.

As pointed out, there is virtually zero surface texture with these technologies.

Also i hear from a lava milling center owner that the SLA models are not consistant. Print 2 models from the same data and there are dimensional differences. As the frame would be milled stright from the digital data this is probably not an issue but worth pointing out. These models are not the ultimate in accuracy that the companies are trying to make out.

Probably oK for run of the mill work but i think the technology has a long way to go yet. Also the models are not cheap.

Still probably way more accurate than the iffy impressions we get from alot of clients.

I take it you have no experience in working with these models. We are a data marking centre for Cadent and 3M - The recent cases are literally mind blowing! If you discussing In'tech please follow up with Dentists that use either (interoral) and the Dental Labs that produce the work - the new Viper from In'tech are not even comparable to a stone model.

$27.50 for a set with solid? including shipping in 3 days? The production acuracy and workflow to completion is incredible. (Please Read up on this)

As far as retention - it is incredible the laser reproduce bur marks to microns! It's those little inaccuracies (thank you dentist) that are are reproduced in accuracy by In'Tech that lead to an incredible fit!

The file is split during data marking and the frameworks created have a marginal fit unlike anything we have seen before! - ever.

The Value add?
Is 30K really that expensive for a dentist - the value adds and reduction in seating chair side is accurate with 3M and Cadent. It's a better tool for you and for the dentist! Last time I checked it was about $500 an hour - wow we could go on - this could be a long topic!

No offense - really however

we personally learned alot from a group in California - beta on partials C.O.S and stone model comparisons - after that and a learning curve we were sold!
So was a locall dentist! then his associate

Really - I would embrace this technology! it's here!

 

[Alistar]

Hello,

Thought I'd dig this post up, because our lab recently started receiving 3M C.O.S scans. We mark the margins and In'Tech manufactures them.

I just want to dispel some of the marketing "facts" that are being thrown around by 3M and the man who is and employ of In'tech.

First off, these models are not "better" than a regular stone pour. They lack the surface texture that everyone in the previous posts has been noting. Making it near impossible to replicate adjacent tooth anatomy on the occlusal, lingual, and facial contours.

Second, They like to make that 3 micron point..but the replicated product is rough to the touch. When you run your finger-nail on the material it makes a "zzziiiip" sound. These grooves are from the SLA model manufacturing process, the laser curing layers of plastic which then form the model. These layers are a problem and if you have a steep enough margin you will get a die with margins that look like "steps".

Third, the models are just a pain to work with compared to pinned models. You need a special tool to pop the pieces out...like I need another tool on my bench. These pieces are clunky. I don't care for them, and odds are you wouldn't either.

Fourth, these things are expensive! So the dentist pays $20 for the scan and the scanner it self is really neat and "wows" the patient, and is suppossed to save chair time. Ok, I get that end, but the lab pays $25 for the model. If was to pay a model department worker $25 a model, I'd get a model that was perfect, not a rough, plastic, undetailed, clunky thing like In'tech/3M makes.

Fifth, you will only a get a good die and...scan for that matter, if the dentist does a 360 shoulder prep. If your doc can't or won't do it, be prepared for headaches marking or finding your magins.

So don't believe the hype. I'd give this a year or so and see what they do to improve the manufacturing of these things.

On a scale of 10 I give these things a 3.

p.s. I'm glad I found you guys! I love the forums and have found much useful info! Sorry my first post had to be a rant, but 3M is pushing these things hard on the docs and they do not deliver a good product for the price a the moment.

 

[rkm rdt]

"Sorry my first post had to be a rant,"

It's better to be pist off than pist on. !

 

[Alistar]

It's better to be pist off than pist on. !

Haha, true!!

 

[JohnWilson]

Hello,

Thought I'd dig this post up, because our lab recently started receiving 3M C.O.S scans. We mark the margins and In'Tech manufactures them.

I just want to dispel some of the marketing "facts" that are being thrown around by 3M and the man who is and employ of In'tech.

First off, these models are not "better" than a regular stone pour. They lack the surface texture that everyone in the previous posts has been noting. Making it near impossible to replicate adjacent tooth anatomy on the occlusal, lingual, and facial contours.

Second, They like to make that 3 micron point..but the replicated product is rough to the touch. When you run your finger-nail on the material it makes a "zzziiiip" sound. These grooves are from the SLA model manufacturing process, the laser curing layers of plastic which then form the model. These layers are a problem and if you have a steep enough margin you will get a die with margins that look like "steps".

Third, the models are just a pain to work with compared to pinned models. You need a special tool to pop the pieces out...like I need another tool on my bench. These pieces are clunky. I don't care for them, and odds are you wouldn't either.

Fourth, these things are expensive! So the dentist pays $20 for the scan and the scanner it self is really neat and "wows" the patient, and is suppossed to save chair time. Ok, I get that end, but the lab pays $25 for the model. If was to pay a model department worker $25 a model, I'd get a model that was perfect, not a rough, plastic, undetailed, clunky thing like In'tech/3M makes.

Fifth, you will only a get a good die and...scan for that matter, if the dentist does a 360 shoulder prep. If your doc can't or won't do it, be prepared for headaches marking or finding your magins.

So don't believe the hype. I'd give this a year or so and see what they do to improve the manufacturing of these things.

On a scale of 10 I give these things a 3.

p.s. I'm glad I found you guys! I love the forums and have found much useful info! Sorry my first post had to be a rant, but 3M is pushing these things hard on the docs and they do not deliver a good product for the price a the moment.

A lot of this information is true as far a surface detail goes.

I would not rate the system as a 3 by any means. Get a few 100 units under your belt and the speed it takes you to find and mark the margins increases.

Cost of new technology has always been a normal thing, I like the product but as I stated before it does not help a client that has skill and talent to prep and take a good static impressions. What it can do is take a poor prepping/impressing dentist and helps him improve and deliver consistently easy delivering units.

It is the future, it will improve detail one way or another.

 

[grantoz]

good to know as we are just about to get the full attack from cos itero sirona etc i wish our dentists in australia would read this info thanks guys .grantoz