Argen Noble Crown NF???

[Big Guy]

Is anyone familuar with this new metal from Argen Called Argen Noble Crown NF?? It is 25% PD 42.75% CO 20% CR and 12% MO with a CTE of 14.4. I know that Ivoclar has a metal called Callisto CP+ that is very simular. The metal we are using now is 78% palladium. We were thinking about trying the new Argen metal because it is alot cheaper. Any thoughts???

[sixonice]

Is anyone familuar with this new metal from Argen Called Argen Noble Crown NF?? It is 25% PD 42.75% CO 20% CR and 12% MO with a CTE of 14.4. I know that Ivoclar has a metal called Callisto CP+ that is very simular. The metal we are using now is 78% palladium. We were thinking about trying the new Argen metal because it is alot cheaper. Any thoughts???

all of Palladium/Cobalt alloys being sold are not easy to work with. they do not "pool" when melted and metal finish harder than some non-precious alloys. they have a greenish oxide. they are basically like working on non-precious. you will have to tweak your procedures in order for the alloy to run smoothly through the lab.

[aabregini]

We tried two years ago , be prepared to have expansion on your frameworks and or open margins , it seems the metal expand with the bakes. Also we used to have cracks . Very tricky to use. It will grind like NP metal hard. Good luck.

[charles007]

You will not have open margins before or after you finish your crowns unless it didn't fit from the get go. These alloys are like NP with 25% palladium, and nickel, or nickel free.
What you will get is a nasty green color you will want to sandblast after glazing, and crowns that might fit better after glazing than precious alloys.

[Big Guy]

thanks for the feedback. I think I might stay away from it. The semi prec. that we are using now has no silver in it. I have heard that semi prec. metals with silver in it can cause greening at the margins any advice??

[charles007]

Use a non-greening modeling liquid, if needed. Avante and Vita has one for silver alloys. There are many companies that sell liquids for silver alloys. Just make sure you porcelain is compatable with your alloy-CTE. Higher silver = higher CTE

[disturbed]

oops...

[charles007]

eventually the silver oxide will attach itself to your furnace muffle and turn even your all ceramic crowns slightly green, avoid silver, purge your oven often (still not sold on the purge but lots are doing it). If you use silver try to make sure you have a dedicated degassing oven that is used for degassing only.

NO SILVER IN THESE ALLOYS......Still need to clean oven from time to time.

[Jeff Brown]

Yes ,we use it everyday love it. Takes some getting used to

[k2 Ceramic Studio]

We use it and find it a good metal, NO green margins, NO cracking and No problems. just like a good N/P. You do need to sandblast the oxide once the job is glazed but it gives really nice results.

[labmanmike]

I have been using the Ivoclar Calisto CP + for some time now. Maybe a year and find it to be a good metal. It is basically the same makeup as the New Argen metal. It is super hard and has a dark oxcide. It is handled pretty much like NP, casting is similar, finishing is similar. Just be sure to follow an exact procedure every time. One thing I did change , the manual says to opaque on the oxcide. I had trouble when I did that. The other thing I believe to be important, get the 1st opaque layer on with enough to fully cover the coping. Some grey will still show thru, but make sure to really burn that 1st layer on with a shine, not a mat or eggshell finish. I have been an advisor for the Calisto + and feel free to contact me if ? or problems. The tow are much the same metal... toothmkr1@msn.com

[ZahnSchuster]

I've used Noble NF, and I was very frustrated. A lot of cracking. We've gone back to our Palladium/78%. Noble is an interesting alloy. It's behavior is errant and unruly. Some of you have had success working with Noble NF, and I would like to ask:

a. What porcelain system are you using? (ie. Ivoclar, Vita, ShoFu...)

b. How are you casting? (Induction vs. Flame, etc)

[CaptekAaron]

Good morning everyone!! I was going through some posts and noticed this thread. For any technical support with Argen / Captek products, please never hesitate to contact me or my fellow techincal team. we are very happy to assist you!!

regarding the Noblecrown NF, one must follow the procedures in the letter we ship out with the product. Short cuts cannot be taken or there will be problems. As some of you have noticed, the Noblecrown NF alloy does not pool as most all noble alloys do, so special considerations must be taken. degas from 650-1010°C (1200-1850°F), hold 0 min, (vacuum); Remove oxide with non-recycled 50 micron aluminum oxide. Do not exceed a blast pressure of 4bars or 60 psi. Clean in distilled water in an ultrasonic cleaner for 10 minutes. we recommend running the first coat / wash opaque application 10°c higher than normal to get a better integration with the oxide then followed with regular opaque coats. The oxide color will be different when finishing with a stone vs. a carbide bur. For best results, grind the metal surfaces for porcelain application with cross-cut carbide bur in one direction. When casting if you take the torch off the alloy when melting it an oxide will form. It’s good to purge at least once a month just to make sure porcelain ovens are clean, we recommend using purge-all and purge-all + since those two seem to work best.

Again, we are very happy to assist you in any way possible. You can reach me directly or you can contact Argen technical support directly at 1-800-255-5095

[ODSA]

We've had similar issues with the NF but continue to try and find a solution as to why some labs are having success and others are not. I've heard from one lab that is using it successfully and they use ceramco and have dedicated furnaces for NF and are having to purge weekly. We use Noritake EX3 and have spoken with Argen tech support and have followed instructions to the T. We mainly have had some greening on some single units and fracturing of the porcelain on most bridges but not all and the ones that did not crack, had severe greening. Does anyone have any input or idea of when to call it quits on the NF.

[ZahnSchuster]

regarding the Noblecrown NF, one must follow the procedures in the letter we ship out with the product. Short cuts cannot be taken or there will be problems.

ODSA, call it quits. No alloy should be this difficult. Aaron, your input is appreciated, but your company is marketing an alloy that has seen spare success. Also, what you said in your post is almost verbatim what I was told when I called Argen for support. I am guessing here, but I suspect you've had about a 10-15% success rate, and mostly with larger labs.

Most labs cannot afford to overhaul their systems, and purge their ovens constantly. No alloy should require that its user walk on eggshells and perform a series of incantations over the casting pit to make it work. Noble NF is a Base Alloy that can be sold as Semi because it contains Pd. But non-precious alloys perform 10 times better. What does it cost a lab to switch to Noble NF? I'd like to see the stat's on that.

Some effort should be made by Argen to explore why some have found success where so few have. We all followed the same instructions...

[CaptekAaron]

ZahnSchuster, we at Argen are here to support all of our clients!! I am working with the technical team on this and I look forward to serving you and others! I am working on forming a webinar series on the NF alloy; would this be something that everyone is interested in....? can give us opportunities to collaborate with labs who are having success with this alloy and labs who may not along with our guidance as well.

[PCDL]

The study done by Marquette University and just published in the Prosth Journal didn't have the best take on the corrosion qualities of the alloy. From what I have read, these elements just seem to be too far apart chemically to work well. I'll steer my clients who balk at gold prices towards Zr and eMax...

[CaptekAaron]

PCDL, I am no metallurgist by any means, but I will pass this along to my colleagues Paul Cascone, Dr. Arun Prasad and their metallurgy team.

However, I do know that there are many alternatives to gold, such as Emax and Zr as you stated. Yet there are other options as well for metal ceramics or full metal. Captek is a great alternative to high gold prices where a doctor wants a PFM (especially high noble) yet gain all the great attributes or what I call "freebies" that Captek crowns / bridges offer right out of the box. Also we have a Argenco Y+ alloy that is a 2% Gold alloy with a pleasing yellow color, Noble Alloy Classification. Labs can save significant money using Argenco Y+ for their Yellow Casting Units; there are over 500 Labs using this alloy successfully.

[Shaun Keating]

W'sup Aaron....good to see you on these boards We use a crap load of the Argenco Y plus....the alloy is great to work with, and I think the color is great. It's more of a sunshine color than a deep yellow. Our Dr's love it, and the price has made it very affordable for our accounts to still prescribe Gold restorations. Argen and the alloys they make have always been 1st class

[JohnWilson]

We use Y+ as well and while its not a true gold color it does look like a copper penny

It passes quite well for the cost conscience client that insists on gold.