Ortho Labs working for GPs

[Inman Labs]

Wow....
Where do I even start?

Let's start with some history and simple facts..

I own Inman Orthodontic Laboratories and we have an affiliation with Space Maintainers.
I pay Space Maintainers a royalty on my appliance sales, most of this money is used in marketing. I do not own Space Maintainers and Space Maintainers does not own Inman Labs.

Space Maintainers Lab (SML from now on) started over 50 years ago by Bill Veis, I have never met him but I hear he is a wonderful person. Bill worked for a pediatric dentist that taught Bill everything about pediatric and orthodontic appliances, this included learning how to draw Cephs and understand treatment planning. The lab took off mostly working for pediatric dentists, many of these PDs did their own phase 1 ortho and some did it all. Today it is very common and respected for pediatric dentists to practice interceptive orthodontics. SML is one of the most respected lab in the pediatric world and their product division is mostly pediatric driven.

Bill's son Dr. Rob Veis added the diagnostic division and he personally reviews every case. Dr. Veis although not an orthodontist has practice ortho since he graduated dental school. He is well respected for his knowledge in ortho and has lectured and taught at the University level, he also was involved with LVI

Here is kind of how it works...

Most of what is taught is very simple minor tooth movement like uprighting a molar so a bridge can be placed or kicking a central out of cross bite.

Right off the bat Dr. Veis insists that the doctor must take full records and do a full diagnostic review.

If the case is within the guidelines of a simple case then the Second Opinion will design a treatment plan that is usually designing a couple appliances.

If the case is not simple they will suggest that the doctor refer the patient to a Orthodontist.

Now if it is a doctor who has many years experience they will help treatment plan more difficult cases.

Fact: Dentists who practice some ortho refer many more patients than dentists who don't do any ortho....because they can see the need for ortho more easily. Smart orthos know this and will often help mentor GPs with simple cases knowing they will get his/her referrals.

But here is where SML really works with GPs

They are a leader in Sleep Dentistry
They are a leader in Sports Dentistry
They are a leader in Periodontics with Perio Protect
They are a leader in Pediatric Dentistry

These are smart very ethical people and Mike you would like them if you met them.

Regarding your financial situation....
I would love to be you..no debts.

At 50 I just bought a new building and ton of new equipment...big debt
One boy starting high school the other a senior, we are looking at colleges...more debt
3 cars, one paid off, another almost paid off.

I love what I do so I guess if I can never retire what the hell but what I did do is to protect my family and employees. If I were to die suddenly none of my employees or my family would worry what to do....everything is in place.

As far as the IPC....best idea I have ever had..Mike did I tell you I got the idea playing with a Zip Tie? I will soon offer a kit on Inmanpower.com, it is a great looking case I designed and it will hold all the goodies you need to fabricate IPC appliances. We will also offer a training DVD, we are almost finished with it. I have talked with both Great Lakes and SML and they might offer the kit but they are worried about packaging costs.

Only time will tell if the IPC ever gets the respect I feel it deserves but I will do what's needed to give it a chance.

I hope this covers it all, if not I am not going anywhere.

Regards,
Don

[labdude]

Intresting to know the direction of the affiliation to SML.
It is a money issue involving SML.
They may be smart people, their ethics I find unacceptable.
Yes I would like the people at SML.
It's the people in charge I have a problem with.
I do agree, that we disagree, on SML and their motives.
I don't think the way older labs opertate is really in line with the original owners. I have seen this behavior in the electronics busniess as well.
Still, there needs to be patient disclosure of this practice, as it stands today.

Something interesting today on CNN. A woman had a disk in her back replaced at the advice of her doctor. His advice was very positive concerning the device. It did no good. She required a second surgery to correct the first.
Turns out her doctor ic financialy attached the maker of the disc.
Not the same as orthodontics. But an interesting comparison.
Money becomes a motivator. Ethical because it's legal.
They are in court over the matter.
What you want to bet they settle??? Out of court, no wrong doing admitted maybe??
There are a lot of worthless law suits that are easier(less expensive) to just pay than go to trial. For some, this may seem like one of those. To me, it doesn't.
Edit:
For financial planning and how the boys can put themselves through school. Also for your employees financial planning.
Real Debt Help - Get out of debt with Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover Plan.

[Inman Labs]

Mike:

Just for the record we don't do any case planning or diagnostics at our location, I don't feel I am qualified to do so. I will do Schwartz and Mixed Dentition analysis but I leave the rest to SML SW. You really should go online and see how professional and beautiful their Ceph and treatment plans are done...they even do them for orthodontists!

Thanks for the link...interesting.

Regards.
Don

[labdude]

My questions were answered already. SML doesn't have a single Orthodontist in their operation. No response to an Orthodontist being able to practice in his office as a GP as well, guess I'm right on that one.
I did see a lot of lip service to the information that the GPS that work for SML have lots of experience. Not what I asked for, or put forth. SML has no Orthodontist, or any Orthodontic training, just experience.
Not interested in seeing their "professional" plans, as they are not professional orthodontists.
I agree to disagree.
When the laws and or rules change, O.K.
I do see the professional plans of the Orthodontists I work for.
Every time, and it has been few times due to the reaction of the Orthodontists I work for, SML comes up, they look like they have smelled something bad.

I do like having this info here for all to see and make up their own minds.
Disclosure of the practice needs to be made. The "It's o.k. this way, but not that way" doesn't work for me. Then again, I don't depend on it for income, never have, never will.
If you find this to be still defenseable, o.k. Seems to me to be a finished point.
With that, I will always point out the imbalance and educate when ever this comes up, as to how things are.
I will only offer suggestion on appliances when ask by an Orthodontist. GPs generaly have no clue and need it all explained, then are just happy to get something that moves teeth.
If they are interested in Orthodontics, they are welcome to become and Orthodontist.

[Inman Labs]

Space Maintainers does have Orthodontists who teach courses for them.
Dentists who practice ortho can not call themselves an Orthodontist by law, maybe that will make you feel a little better?

Enjoy your Sunday...hey it stopped raining here...first time in week!

Don

[labdude]

It's that lack of disclosure to the patients. That is what places in question the ethics of SML. We already know they don't offer even reasonable service to a lab, regarding sales of product.
Feeling better is not the issue. Nice try at side stepping once again.
Orthodontists who teach courses for them (SML) still not the point.
How simple can I state it?
I will keep this thread as a indication to all SML short comings.
Interesting there is no one else is here to defend them. No WKE people. Etc.
But, why would they care to. Income is fine, what's to defend against? Some one guy on a small web site?

[Inman Labs]

The WKE group is all what you are about Mike...open sharing of ideas..nothing held back!
It is an amazing thing to be part of but this group has their own minds and opinions, I shared this site with them but so far no posts? Some may be lurking but I will bet like you they are so busy with the summer season they have no time to visit or post.

I also doubt SML would defend themselves if they knew about this site, not their style.

I understand and even respect your feelings like I did with the whole patent issue but I think I have said all I can. I would expect you have a bit more to say but I hope you will understand if I don't respond. We will have more battles, more disagreements.....more two old guys being stubborn but this will be last post on this.

Please don't call me a *****.

Respectfully,

Don

PS You once said this site is small now but in a year or two things will change, I agree.

[TheLabGuy]

SML sounds like the middle man who sends all his stuff to china, or better yet I can name a dental supply company (Dentsply). Okay, sorry about that, just had to join in on your pissing match.....lol just kidding. It's great to see everyone's opinions and ideas.

[labdude]

Don,
Yup, a couple old farts yaking away. Interesting info though.
If I have more crap to say, you'll respond. Your to much like me.
Your a fun and understanding person to agree, or disagree, with.
Mike.

[labdude]

Rob,
Possibly, if when I got started years ago and was not guided by Orthodontists I would be different. When I started I didn't have a clue of how to obtain business, except for knocking on doors and all that goes with it.
Drs. I started with guided me toward the PCSO, and then the AAO when I could afford the AAO.
I could just as easily wound up paying SML to send me work. Simplification, but, paying roaylities to a lab that allows you to use their name is that. No big deal, just the way it is. Good way to "size up" your operation in a hurry.
How about you start up a Dentsply to China thread in another related forum??? That would be very informative as to what is going on with those guys. You got the Huevos I'm sure.
Mike.

[RetainerDesigner]

Originally Posted by labdude

And on it goes...
with all that in mind.
What about Cade?? He's a CDT!! Awesome thing to a point as I know he agrees. The extra training is good, as well as the ongoing education requirements. Problem is, there is to much money involved going not to the program, but into pockets. It's is legal, must be ethical.
I have had a lab for many years, never got a CDT.
Some guys I knew who had a CDT or not, generally said the same thing. Don't bother. I don't think this is right either.
Why should I be able to cruise along while Cade has to jump through ridiculous hoops??
There should be something for us all to meet certain requirments. The current system is not worth crap.
Just like the ortho issue...it's a freak'in mess and I don't know how to fix it.

I sometimes wonder if it wasn't required here in Texas would I have gotten the CDT?. I probably would not have gone to Dental Lab School. Either way the last stats I heard was that it usually takes someone from a Lab School 1-2 years of lab experience to get their CDT, but 9-12 years of lab experience if they didn't go to lab school!
Lab school was the best I I got to learn the basics of all the disciplines, Crown and bridge, Dentures, Partial Dentures, ortho... It has really paid off me being in a small town. I make a lot of quick money repairing and relining Dentures and partial dentures for local dentist around here. If I could afford a Cerec I would whip out overnight crowns for a price. But can t afford that right now. THe best thing about the school is that it got me in my own lab within 1 year of graduating . It also got me making money to pay off the school loans for that BS in biology that I hardly use.

My point being, education is important but also expirence. I would feel more comfortable about going to a new Orthodontist than a GD that has been doing ortho for 2 years. But there are some GD's out there that do good work, but they have been at it for 10 + years. and orthos are doing good work right out of school! Whose to say. I know that orthos tend to be perfectionists when it comes to straight teeth. I get so used to that, that when I get a model from an GD i think: "Are you done?" should I reset some of these teeth? I know ..that was mean. But sometimes that is all the Patient wants, a quick and dirty treatment to get their teeth under control possibly for veneers next. Looks like Space Maintainers has found that niche, providing their expirence to GP to make them look good in the eyes of their patient.

But isn't that the goal of all of us labs? To quietly work in the background and make our Dentist/ Orthos look good.

[labdude]

I did go to a Dental lab school for 2 years while I worked in a lab. Your right on, it did help to have an understanding of all aspects of dental lab work. Thing is L.A. has such a huge base of orthodontists, I didn't have to even think about doing relines or crowns etc.
I have no problem with you doing that stuff Cade. What ever dircetion you take, and it seems to be ortho, FOCUS. Do the other stuff if you need a little extra. It's just les hassle to do just ortho, than it is to change from on type of lab work to another. Also the speed at which you do ortho, as well as the quality, will improve faster. You'll be comfortable sooner doing something like, say, a Bionator.
You kepp doning what you need to do to take care of Sara and your son first.
That stuff you just said about GPs, been there done that as well. Their experience and quality is generally lacking in ortho.

[Inman Labs]

OK..you did it again...sucked me in...

CDT to or not to be, that is the question.
New thread is needed here.

Don