NobelProcera - optical scanner

[aidihra]

I was at a course tonight promoting Nobel Biocare's new scanner (NobelProcera). I just wanted to share a little bit about this scanner.

The scanner has an open design which means it is not affected by light or heat like other scanners that need to be closed off. The scanning technology used is called "conoscopic holography". It can scan steep angles and deep cavaties found in impressions up to 85 degree angles. Most scanners are capable of only 40 to 60 degree angles. Accuracy should be very high and scanning times are short (don't know how short).

The cost is $45,500 (Canadian)
$36,500 - scanner
$9,000 - software


I will be attending a more intimate and hands-on course in October. I should learn much more at that time. I had to leave a little early so I didn't get to see if they actually scanned an impression.

[charles007]

Is this a closed system and married to Procera, if thats the case, I hope your coping are dirt cheap. ....I would also check out 3Shape, 3M ST scanner, and Dental Wings...These scanners are 32k US and the 3Shape and Dental Wings will scan an impression. Some companies are offering 5k or more in free coping and or leased paid, or partial leased paid according to the number of units done per month. Can you have resin patterns made, and at what cost.

[aidihra]

I don't have this system, I just went to a course that was promoting it. It is a closed system, but it is compatible with other implant systems. Resin patterns will be made in the near future. I don't know at what cost.

It's a little scary because one of my dentists is seriously thinking about getting this machine. If he does he won't need me much anymore.

[Caver]

I have been using the Procera Mod 40 scanner for 10 years. We have had great fits and the labs we scan for have been very happy with the copings. I have passed up 3 newer Procera scanners because of the technology, but now is the time!

I will have my new NobelProcera - optical scanner sometime within the next month. I decided the technology has advanced enough to make the leap.

The scanner, computer, software and training is $38,000. In the next few months the iTero system digital files will be able to be sent to Procera directly for coping or bridge creation. That means I can have models and copings here in just 2 or 3 days.

I had a 7 unit splint/ bridge scanned and milled with the inlab system. Didn't fit. To have it remade would cost me another $675. If it had been made by Procera it would have been remade at no cost to me.

[JohnWilson]

Are they offering any trade ins for your old MOD 40?

Besides the price they quoted you what are they offering as far as core cost and abutment cost?

[DMC]

Cool. Let us know how that works out.

[Caver]

No trade in for the Mod 40. It's a work horse and the Procera rep told me if I sold the scanner and computer with the software they would support the lab that bought it. I can make someone a real good deal to get into Procera.

We are currently paying $57 US for copings and I think $175 for abutments. If we get our volume up the copings will drop to under $50, depending on volume.

NobelBiocare also has the Nobel Guide software which is included in the price. If you don't know about the Nobel Guide software and "Teeth in an Hour" I suggest you look into the software. This software package is selling for $5000US but is is part of the package.

I will keep you informed. Cheers

[kmgold1234]

The impression scanning is very interesting however I feel it is far from truely being proven. I realize all of the dental cad vendors are claiming they can scan impressions however wait till you see what they can really scan in terms of the impression materials and how much filling in of the data points that will occur, which will impact not only the design but more importantly the fit of the restoration. I feel that the only way to see if this works is to take 5-10 impressions using different impression materials for restorations in the anterior and the posterior and work your way through the entire case- scan, design a coping, and mill it out and then pour up models of the impression and fit them onto the restoration.

I would ask any of the vendors for a list of the materials and the actual number of cases they did testing on and the results.This is why many of them have shown the scanner but are not releasing it to be sold. The biggest challenge is in the anterior and regardless of the angles and mirrors of these scanners most cannot get the points....accurately.

As for your dentist buying a NobelProcera Scanner what does it buy him - an overpriced zirconia abutment or coping and that is all? Who is going to stack porcelain, etc unless he has an internal lab? Better off outsourcing for everything....

[DMC]

I agree. The only scanner I see that might work is the 3M Sprite.

Which emits radiation and takes a long time to do one impression. (expensive!)

Bogus dreams, not reality just yet,.

[JohnWilson]

Originally Posted by kmgold1234

The impression scanning is very interesting however I feel it is far from truely being proven. I realize all of the dental cad vendors are claiming they can scan impressions however wait till you see what they can really scan in terms of the impression materials and how much filling in of the data points that will occur, which will impact not only the design but more importantly the fit of the restoration. I feel that the only way to see if this works is to take 5-10 impressions using different impression materials for restorations in the anterior and the posterior and work your way through the entire case- scan, design a coping, and mill it out and then pour up models of the impression and fit them onto the restoration.

I would ask any of the vendors for a list of the materials and the actual number of cases they did testing on and the results.This is why many of them have shown the scanner but are not releasing it to be sold. The biggest challenge is in the anterior and regardless of the angles and mirrors of these scanners most cannot get the points....accurately.

As for your dentist buying a NobelProcera Scanner what does it buy him - an overpriced zirconia abutment or coping and that is all? Who is going to stack porcelain, etc unless he has an internal lab? Better off outsourcing for everything....

You have some valid points. 3m will have a new PVS released that is specifically made for scanning, however I believe that this will be a passing trend. In the mean time it's a neat toy but one that I am not investing in.

As for the optical scanner in the new procera system now that I may be buying

[sixonice]

My opinion on scanning impressions is different. I actually think the 3Shape scanner and software is THERE. A lab friend of mine has their system and beta tested the new software for scanning impressions and it worked great. 3Shape has been doing hearing aid stuff as well, scanning the ear canal for a custom fit hearing aid appliance.
Check them out if you like - http://www.3shape.com/

[DMC]

they scan a mould of an ear canal, which almost has no undercuts. Big deal.

If you can't see it, ya can't scan it with a laser scanner (3Shape). I can't see the undercut below margins on almost all impressions. No software on earth will fix that flaw.

[sixonice]

Have you used the 3 Shape software or seen a demo of the impression scanning?

[DMC]

No. So, I guess I could be totally wrong. Maybe it's the chit I've been dreaming of?

[kmgold1234]

Originally Posted by DMC

they scan a mould of an ear canal, which almost has no undercuts. Big deal.

If you can't see it, ya can't scan it with a laser scanner (3Shape). I can't see the undercut below margins on almost all impressions. No software on earth will fix that flaw.

Your absolutely right regarding the laser scanners - the Nobel scanner may be able to capture undercuts as long as they are not too severe and the size of the tooth that it is scanning where the laser can reach the undercut area if the angle is not too sharp.

This is why the only application for 3Shape and the other impression scanners are for posterior teeth. Don't let them fool you on the anterior.

As for the software - that is more of a subjective discussion regarding the bells and whistles.

If anyone inspected the raw data coming out of all these scanners (my friend did this and he has the software tools to compare datasets of the different scanners (using Geomagic) you would be shocked as to how awful most of it is- missing large areas, filling in areas, invalid points, etc. It is all how the software takes the raw data and makes it usable.

This is why you will notice that around the margins of a coping the edges are rounded (this is why the milling centers afterwards have to grind them to make them knife edges,etc.). The biggest problems with these scanners is how they capture the points around the margin...always has been and always will be.....

The most accurate scanner out there is still the touchprobe scanners. This is why the metrology business (measuring parts) still uses Reinshaws touch probe devices. However we all know the limitations of them.

[JohnWilson]

Originally Posted by kmgold1234

The most accurate scanner out there is still the touchprobe scanners. This is why the metrology business (measuring parts) still uses Reinshaws touch probe devices. However we all know the limitations of them.

Yeah its funny that Nobel spouted this for years how touch scanning is exceedingly more accurate then drops like 30 mil to buy BioCad and switch over to optical.

God knows this piccolo is going to become a door stop soon.

[RestOraDent]

Originally Posted by Caver

....... In the next few months the iTero system digital files will be able to be sent to Procera .......

Can this be confirmed? I have had several people (this includes reps from both companies) suggest this is going to happen but no one will go on record.


Rob
------

[DMC]

I too have plenty of different software to count data points and triangles.

We get scans from everything! I can tell you the 3M scanner has the most data of them all.

Touch probe is terrible for any undercuts or sharp edges.
The fit of Procerra speeks for itself. Open margins everywhere, floppy fit.
Rejected dies, etc.....

Touch probe is great for measuring the basic shape of a box or a perfectly round object, but for reading a margin that has been ditched with undercuts just below it is poo doo. I doubt we will ever see that technology again in our field.

White light scanning is the bomb for the shapes we have to deal with.
Lasers only read the profile, or fringe...they can not see an extreme depression or undercuts very well.

White light uses both fringe (outline) AND everything inbetween. The computer sees the Zebra stripes changing path all across the whole surface. I have a deep understanding of the befits and drawbacks of most scanners.

Anybody want to start a real discussion on this topic? Here we go!

[charles007]

I've got a old procera lower lateral that gathering dust that has unlimited limitations, its actually spins on the die........ Sorry can't lie, it almost spins,,, well not really, it just rotates a little....It had to be probed twice to get out the door.
Door stop, well said John.......

[BruceQuality]

Originally Posted by DMC

...The fit of Procerra speeks for itself. Open margins everywhere, floppy fit.
Rejected dies, etc.....

I think this has more to do with the scanner's operator than the scanner itself. We have been using a Procera Forte, touch scanner, in our lab for 3 years and the fit and margins are near perfect depending upon which technician is scanning! The newbies tend to have a tougher time picking the margins but they eventually learn the procedures to eliminate bad margins and poor fit.

The key is to have the margins spot on or a tad short to begin with. If they are overextended and they have to be ground down the fit is lost.

Good luck!