New to IPS e.max - some questions

[CogSci]

Hi everybody,
I'm relatively new to the modern way of doing metal-free ceramics. Have done Lava now for two years with 100% success. My main account told me he's interested in Empress because of the better aesthetics. Well, I negotiated him down to e.max instead. I found 160 mPa a little frightening, knowing that the doc is pretty gutsy and will push the limits. So here's my plan: I found a lab in Illinois that would mill my copings. As I see it, all I'd have to buy to get started is the e.max Ceram Basic kit and the Essence kit, right? Do I miss anything? Is 4 working days in house reasonable for milling an e.max coping?

If/when the doc is happy with the results and shifts more and more from Lava towards e.max, I plan to buy a press furnace, maybe a few months down the road. Within my preferred price range I found the Ney Cerampress QEX for $3899 and the Whipmix Pro Press 100 for $3499. Which one would be the better choice?

My Ivoclar sales rep tells me that pressed e.max fit better than milled. Maybe the prospect of selling me the Ivoclar furnace has an impact on his statement? What do you think?

Seeing that the e.max Ceram porcelain itself is twice as expensive as the Noritake CZR that I use to complete my Lavas makes me wonder how the lab price level of the finished e.max milled/pressed compares to Lava or Pfm?

Hmm, lots of questions. Hope someone can enlighten me?

[DMC]

Milled on a Cerec......25-30 year old scanning technology.....3 Axis milling machine?

Yeah, I'd press over that.

There will be many new options for Emax soon. That material should be milled on a five-axis BEEFY CNC mill. That would be much better than press IMO.

The buzz over Emax may die down soon. There are new materials on the horizon.

[TheLabGuy]

Go take "Smile Design" at L.V.I. (Las Vegas Institute of Dentistry)....Ivoclar products are exclusively used. You'll learn everything you need to do Empress, MO, LT, E.Max....

[JohnWilson]

Originally Posted by TheLabGuy

Go take "Smile Design" at L.V.I. (Las Vegas Institute of Dentistry)....Ivoclar products are exclusively used. You'll learn everything you need to do Empress, MO, LT, E.Max....

Back when you had to take a course to become an EMPRESS certified lab I went to LVI to get my training.

Emax today and the layering porc that accompanies it is truly a step forward in durability of the old line of pressibles. The highly anticipated HT ingot that I can't wait to get my hands on will take pressed ceramics to the next level.

Milled monolithic restorations seem to be the immediate future, the ability to make them look non monochromatic is the challenge. I just wish I could see the future to know definitively which way I should point my investing dollar.

Hell I guess thats the American dream right, gamble with some degree of intelligence.

[Pronto]

Originally Posted by DMC

Milled on a Cerec......25-30 year old scanning technology.

The brand new Cerec AC uses blue spectrum similar to the blue ray dvd discs. It blows the COS system out of the water. Rapid prototype models are available now as well.

[DMC]

Originally Posted by Pronto

The brand new Cerec AC uses blue spectrum similar to the blue ray dvd discs. It blows the COS system out of the water. Rapid prototype models are available now as well.

Actually the COS has the same light.....same for the D4d (e4e)

The Lava COS is the only one that takes streaming live video and stitches it together REAL TIME No point and click (Brontes patent). Just wave it around!

Taking an accrate full arch with no data voids is faster and possible with the COS, and resolution is great! None of them can see thru soft tissue, but the COS can stitch together many infinite views to see the full pic.

Other systems get case files sent to Isreal? or some other country to have the data voids filled (stitched) by humans and the image cleaned up. Then it gets sent back to the US. You'll pay for that service. The COS raw scan is clean and ready to boogy I think?. The COS has the smallest device to stuff into your mouth?

I'd check the history of the two companys that 3M and Sirona choose to partner with to make the models. 3D Systems seems quite large and I believe actually invented the STL format we all use. The other company uses a goofy method IMO. There has been one on ebay for a while now.....

Sorry for the one sided opinion, but facts are facts! Everybodys mouth glows the same color Blue with the three newest oral scanners IMO Only one has real time scanning, and not ponit and click. Point and click depend on your hand not moving at all! Plenty of room for error and bad data.

Maybe the actual scan head is OK, but the software that puts it all together is behind the COS technology.

I'm sure Sirona will come out with a modern-day scanner for the lab

[sixonice]

Originally Posted by CogSci

Hi everybody,
I'm relatively new to the modern way of doing metal-free ceramics. Have done Lava now for two years with 100% success. My main account told me he's interested in Empress because of the better aesthetics. Well, I negotiated him down to e.max instead. I found 160 mPa a little frightening, knowing that the doc is pretty gutsy and will push the limits. So here's my plan: I found a lab in Illinois that would mill my copings. As I see it, all I'd have to buy to get started is the e.max Ceram Basic kit and the Essence kit, right? Do I miss anything? Is 4 working days in house reasonable for milling an e.max coping?

If/when the doc is happy with the results and shifts more and more from Lava towards e.max, I plan to buy a press furnace, maybe a few months down the road. Within my preferred price range I found the Ney Cerampress QEX for $3899 and the Whipmix Pro Press 100 for $3499. Which one would be the better choice?

My Ivoclar sales rep tells me that pressed e.max fit better than milled. Maybe the prospect of selling me the Ivoclar furnace has an impact on his statement? What do you think?

Seeing that the e.max Ceram porcelain itself is twice as expensive as the Noritake CZR that I use to complete my Lavas makes me wonder how the lab price level of the finished e.max milled/pressed compares to Lava or Pfm?

Hmm, lots of questions. Hope someone can enlighten me?

I think we got off topic a bit from the original question. If anybody has any questions on the new Sirona Blue Cam scanner, just call your Patterson area rep for a demo.....I did, and the thing is AMAZING.
If your going to outsource e.max (Lithium Discilicate), you have (2) options: copings that will need to be layered with porcelain, OR you can have the lab mill you a full-contour restoration that you can put your special stain & glaze touches on. I like full layered e.max in the anterior, and full contour stain & glaze from the promolars back. These are the monolithic (one material) restorations that are changing the industry. What you will need to complete those units is the e.max ceram basic kit and instead of the Essence kit, go for the shade & stain kit for sure.
If you do build that business and purchase a press, try and swing for the Ivoclar press. It presses with sensors, knowing when the mold is full, compared to the others that go by a set pressing time that can cause problems for you.
Pressing will always be a part of our business. CAD/CAM is also, but ALL labs can basically afford a e.max pressing system, and not a $100,000+ CAD system. Pressing is also MUCH more profitable for you. As for fit, I would say a pressed restoration (under high magnification) versus a milled restoration would have better fit.
As for price, milling zirconia is much more expensive than milling e.max Lithium Disilicate. When you price out blocks of each, the zirconia is around 35% higher in cost. The e.max ceram glass is more expensive, but in my opinion looks prettier and also gives you the option to layer any zirconia substrate AND Lithium Disilicate.

[CogSci]

Originally Posted by sixonice

<snip>

As for price, milling zirconia is much more expensive than milling e.max Lithium Disilicate. When you price out blocks of each, the zirconia is around 35% higher in cost. The e.max ceram glass is more expensive, but in my opinion looks prettier and also gives you the option to layer any zirconia substrate AND Lithium Disilicate.

Thanks everybody for the wealth of information!
Would you please clarify the last part, sixonice? Did you mean that I should charge about the same price for a layered e.max crown as for a Lava crown? How about a stained monolithic e.max? Lower than Lava?
BTW, an e.max CAD coping costs me $78 with one way shipping included, while a Lava coping is $89 with both ways free shipping. Not much difference here.

[TheLabGuy]

Originally Posted by CogSci

a Lava coping is $89 with both ways free shipping. Not much difference here.

DMC, where outh thou?

[Al.]

Originally Posted by CogSci

Thanks everybody for the wealth of information!
Would you please clarify the last part, sixonice? Did you mean that I should charge about the same price for a layered e.max crown as for a Lava crown? How about a stained monolithic e.max? Lower than Lava?
BTW, an e.max CAD coping costs me $78 with one way shipping included, while a Lava coping is $89 with both ways free shipping. Not much difference here.

I agree with what Sixpackofbeer said.

For full contour press post crns I get and average of 3 crns per ingot that is with both molars and bis. but my bis I cut back the inciasl 1/3 and layer.
It costs $20 per ingot and they are very fast to produce if you learn to wax fast and exact. I use occlusal molds and they turn out beautiful.

For anteriors you can wax one up for layering, complete from dipping to spruing in less then 10 minutes and 50+% of your work is done.

They are very profitable.
I charge less for emax crns then lava and porc fused to gold to encourage Drs to use them. Also the preparation requirments are much less for emax then zir. which is a plus for drs that like to do conservitave preps especially for lower anteriors. Ive been doing all my lower anteriors press and stain, they are so fast and undetectable in the mouth.

I can do 2 to 3 emax crns for every 1 pfm.

[DMC]

Originally Posted by TheLabGuy

DMC, where outh thou?

He's on the other side of America. It's too far away!
There are at least one hundred 3M mills in CA and WA, but they all still getting top dollar! 3M has been sold out of mills for quite some time and only 20 new ones are being installed this year. Something like that.
There is a long waiting list for the new mill!

Things aren't so expensive around here for some reason. Also change happens very slow in the mid-atlantic.

(sorry for messing up this thread)

BACK TO EMAX!

Scott

[RBob]

Hi Guys and Gals,
I'm brand new to this forum as of today 6/13/09. Please forgive me if I don't follow the rules exactly.
I've just started to press Emax. I'm using a Dekema 3001 Press-i-dent furnace. I'm having very little success. Short margins, heavy reaction layer... I've gone up and down with time, temp and press force but still no luck. I don't have difficulties with any other press materials. I've asked they Ivoclar tech rep. and the Dekema rep. but their suggestions have not helped.
Is anyone out there having success with Emax and this furnace?
I would appreciate any help you can provide.
thanks,

[Al.]

I never heard of that furnace.
I guess you got the emax pressing parameters from Ivoclar.
Have all your margins been short? How many ingots have you gone through?

Rules? Whats that? Labdude is the dictator here.

[charles007]

Rbob
Its a shame that you are having problems since Dekema furnaces are known to be the best in the world, and the most expensive!! Try to find a lab that's using the Dekema furnace and using emax. That shouldn't be to hard to find with a few telephone calls.......Maybe a LVI tech knows a Dekema user......
If you have a boat load of money, I would ask the Dekema company to trade your press for their porcelain furnace, and buy a Ivoclar 5000 or the less expensive 3000 for emax press.............

Charles

[charles007]

Which furnace to buy for emax........
1st choice: Ivoclar 5000 has a 3 yr warr. or ......3000 has a 2 yr warr...
2nd choice: WhipMix Pro Press 100 , its a workhorse with a 3 yrs warranty.......
2nd better choice: Zubler but not cheap

Any furnace will work, but so many techs ask for help when using emax with other brands of furnaces..........

Charles

[RBob]

Originally Posted by Al.

I never heard of that furnace.
I guess you got the emax pressing parameters from Ivoclar.
Have all your margins been short? How many ingots have you gone through?

Rules? Whats that? Labdude is the dictator here.

I didn't get the pressing parameters from Ivoclar. They only support their own furnaces. The margins have not all been short. Some near where the sprue is attached and some on the side opposite the sprue. Some margins look as though they are rounded but others just short. I've gone through six ingots. I hate to have to buy another furnace just for this material, but I'm sure that is what Ivoclar would like me to do. :-(

[RBob]

Originally Posted by charles007

Rbob
Its a shame that you are having problems since Dekema furnaces are known to be the best in the world, and the most expensive!! Try to find a lab that's using the Dekema furnace and using emax. That shouldn't be to hard to find with a few telephone calls.......Maybe a LVI tech knows a Dekema user......
If you have a boat load of money, I would ask the Dekema company to trade your press for their porcelain furnace, and buy a Ivoclar 5000 or the less expensive 3000 for emax press.............

Charles

Charles007,
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try LVI on Monday. I already have a Dekema porcelain furnace (non-pressing). It is such a nice piece of equipment that that is why I bought their pressing furnace. I'm just having trouble getting the time/temp. dialed in.

[Al.]

Originally Posted by RBob

I didn't get the pressing parameters from Ivoclar. They only support their own furnaces. The margins have not all been short. Some near where the sprue is attached and some on the side opposite the sprue. Some margins look as though they are rounded but others just short. I've gone through six ingots. I hate to have to buy another furnace just for this material, but I'm sure that is what Ivoclar would like me to do. :-(

Im busy now but tomorrow Ill post the pressing parameters from my manual unless somebody else does.

[RBob]

Originally Posted by Al.

Im busy now but tomorrow Ill post the pressing parameters from my manual unless somebody else does.

Al.,
thanks but I have the pressing parameters for Emax from Ivoclar. Unfortunately they do not translate to the Dekema furnace. I also have parameters for the Dekema furnace from the Dekema tech rep. He is pressing Emax with the Dekema with success.
Could it be the investment I'm using? I'm using Whip Mix PC15.

[charles007]

change change change investments!!!! to ivoclar . or at least to you get a handle on things